SPEAKER_00 0:00

Ask that client, like, what about the work or the lifestyle it's giving you that you don't want to do anymore? I think understanding what you don't want is part of the equation of figuring out what you do want. So I think that's the first thing about it. How do you want the new job to change your lifestyle or to change the work you do, who you do it for? I think that's a prime question there. And say, you know, I would say the same thing. What problems do you like solving? Where do you tend to get lost in the work? Because that thing that I joke about is that if all of our job titles were true to what we did all day, we would all be professional email responders and meeting attendees.

SPEAKER_02 0:41

Oh my god, that sounds awful.

SPEAKER_00 0:45

But it's the problems that we solve, it's the challenges that we take on, it's the opportunities that we get to execute upon in those conversations on those keyboards that give us the energy.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:55

Right. And really what I do is I help my clients align their work to the energy that they want to create in their lives.

SPEAKER_03 1:02

Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the show where financial planning meets human understanding. As an exceptional financial advisor, you know that financial planning is about more than just numbers. It's about giving clients the clarity they need to align their money with what matters most, which is why each episode is designed with that goal in mind. You'll learn how to uncover the psychology behind client decisions and gain insights and behavioral strategies needed to create deeper, more meaningful client relationships. You'll discover techniques for navigating emotional client situations drawn from conversations with leading industry experts in behavioral finance, psychology, communication, and more. Whether it's mastering discovery meaning handling sensitive client conversations or understanding what is truly keeping your client stuck, you'll walk away with not only strategies that you can use in your next client meeting, but also the confidence to do so. Oh yeah, hi. I should probably introduce myself. I'm your host, Ashley Kwame, a therapist who somehow wandered into the world of financial behavior and kind of decided to stay. My mission is to help you bridge the gap between financial planning and human understanding. Because remember, finances don't have feelings, but your clients do. Let's dive in. Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the podcast where financial planning meets human understanding. I'm your host, Ashley Kwame, and today I am joined by my new friend, Colby Goodman, career coach, keynote speaker, author, and just really a cool guy. I'm so pumped that he's here. We are introduced through Lindsay Troxel, a dear friend, uh, and grateful that she introduced us. Colby, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for coming on.

SPEAKER_00 2:51

Thank you for having me, Ashley. I'm really excited.

SPEAKER_03 2:54

Yeah, yeah. So what I love about you is that we do similar work, but it's different. And so I'm really excited for the conversation today because there's a lot of overlap. But what you do as a career coach and consultant, I think is so valuable for advisory firms. So I want to get into a little bit of that work. But first, maybe can you take just a minute or two and just share like high-level, like how did you get into this? A little bit of your timeline, your story.

SPEAKER_00 3:26

Uh okay, so let's get back in the DeLorean and go a long time ago. I um came out of school in uh 2008, or as I like to joke, about two or three recessions ago. And I was panicked as a new graduate and didn't want my parents to become my next set of roommates. And so I kind of took the first thing I was able to get my hands around, which was IT help desk support. Was the technical kid, was the kid who could put the VCR together or take it apart, put it back together, and it still worked. So I had a knack for this stuff and spent the next, you know, eight, ten years in the field and rose through the ranks relatively quickly because, as you probably know, if you ever call the help desk or call technical support, they're really technically sound, but they have negative people skills.

SPEAKER_03 4:10

Yes, that is facts.

SPEAKER_00 4:13

I had a monitor of people skills, which helped me get promotions, get raises, go on you know, cool projects and cool trips. But towards the end of my tenure in IT, I was working on projects I didn't care uh for with people I could not stand, making people I'd never met a bunch of money. Okay, this is not the value I want to put into the world. And so I did a self-audit. And as I was doing that, I had fellow IT people and fellow friends and family come to me and say, Colby, how are you doing this? How are you getting these promotions? How are you being asked to go on these executive retreats? How are you, you know, getting these raises? And for me, it was an intrinsic, obvious thing that then I realized not everybody knows how to do. And so I kind of productized it, figured out what my magic sauce was, and started putting it out into the world. I got my first 10 clients by posting on Reddit, next door, and Facebook, and I would coach clients at the Starbucks down the street, and it worked. And so that was 12 years ago. 11 years ago, I put in my two-week notice at my last corporate IT management job. And since then, I've helped over 3,500 professionals get new jobs, get paid better, have better work-life balance, love their work more than ever. Um, I've published two books, I've keynoted and workshopped over 200 events. And what I love to say that I've done is really change people's lives. Because if we're spending 40 plus hours a week doing this thing, I think it has to have some kind of meaning, some kind of purpose, and it has to challenge us in ways that we welcome versus dread on those Sunday nights.

SPEAKER_03 5:48

Yeah, all of those things I think are incredibly important. And, you know, at least in my, I'll say personal, maybe even professional sphere, it is very common to see people who are just working to work or doing something just to do something. And I understand that for many to be able to have all of those things that you mentioned can be a privilege. Not everyone, you know, has uh or is able to have meaning and pleasure and joy and find challenge. But for those where it is possible and they're still working in places that, you know, don't fulfill or hit all those checkboxes, like it can take a toll not only on your mental emotional state, but also, you know, financially as well. So I love hearing that. I don't know if I don't think we maybe you mentioned this in a previous conversation, but I don't remember the IT part. So that is really that's fascinating because you're right. A lot of IT professionals, they don't have the people skills, Colby. So I can see where you would be a little bit of a unicorn in that space doing that. So for those that might, I mean, I think we probably myself maybe even included, like we hear the term like career coach. And you know, as educated people, I can probably tell you a little bit about what that is or what it's centered around. But can you talk to us? Like, how do you explain what career coaching is or what you do for people in a little bit more of like a nuanced way?

SPEAKER_00 7:15

Yeah. So let me start with what I don't do, right? So I am not your like high school guidance counselor. I'm not gonna prescribe a bunch of assessments and personality tests and say, well, based on your multiple choices, this is what you should be doing. I don't want to prescribe a career to anybody. That doesn't sound really genuine. What I do is I partner with my clients to help them best understand where their expertise is, where they enter that flow state where time disappears and they reach the peak of their potentials. And most importantly, what are the problems they like solving? Right. Because I think that's so important. Because ultimately, in any professional rank, you and I included, the financial advisors listening included, we are being compensated to solve problems and to take away people's pain, right? Like this is a human survivalist anthropological trait. It's like we will do anything in our power to take away pain, but we maybe won't move across the room to accentuate joy. So that's how I position my clients is how do we get you to become an expert problem solver to relieve the right people's biggest pains? And that's how you become in demand. So that's including coaching on career discovery, what's next for you and why? Application strategy, relationship development strategy, especially in this day and age with AI. You can't simply submit 100 applications and hope that you get lucky. Interview preparation and obviously solidarity negotiation. In addition to that, I'm writing my clients' resumes for them because the product can't be a good self-marketer. So I'm there to do that as an advocate. Uh, I write cover letters, LinkedIn profiles, and I work with my clients side by side to help them take action in this process so that they are getting more opportunities to interview, they get more offers, and at the end, they have an opportunity to choose where they want to go and not settle for the only thing that they've acquired.

SPEAKER_03 9:14

I wish that I had found you many, many moons ago when I was entering into the space of clinical work and looking for positions. I wish that I had found you many, many moons ago. I stumbled here and so I think I'm good right now. I've found my way here, I think I'm good now. But I can see we're having that type of, you said position yourself as like an advocate for your clients, having someone like you as an advocate that can also guide, right? Like the word guide comes to mind here. For me, at least that's what comes up is helping kind of guide them, not maybe do everything for them, but just be that sounding board and that guide to help them really come into their own.

SPEAKER_00 9:56

Yeah. You know, I had a last year I had a client tell me, and I told her I was gonna steal this. She said, Colby, you're equal parts cheerleader and drill sergeant.

SPEAKER_03 10:04

That's a great, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

Yeah, I'm here to help and like help you reach to the top of your potential so that you don't settle. And I'm also gonna hold you accountable for reaching that bar. And I think you know in this space, the easiest person you can say no to is yourself.

SPEAKER_01 10:18

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:19

And so having an external partner, an external expert in your corner to help you understand what to do, why you should do it, and then make sure that you do it, that's where real progress is made. That's where we push past the limiting beliefs and the comfort zones that have kept you safe and in your little bubble for as long as these people have fit.

SPEAKER_03 10:40

So I think it's pretty obvious, at least to me, where like career coaching can be helpful. But in this show, at least, like we talk about financial planning and the human side. And so I want to start to move down the path of, you know, speaking to our listeners here. You've started working alongside partnering with advisors, like help make the connection here. Like, how does this play into financial planning? How does this help financial planning andor clients? I don't want to make the leap. I'm gonna let you do it.

SPEAKER_00 11:16

Yeah. So I've been approached by a few financial planning firms organically over the last year, which has kind of gotten me thrusted into this whole new universe that you've been a part of for a very long time. And what I what I was told and what I'm finding is that this kind of expertise that I bring is badly needed now because established white-collar knowledge workers are becoming are finding themselves on the bad end of a mass layoff more often than not. You look at people, you know, places like Oracle, Meta, you know, people who have been there years and years and years and are making good money for a long time, or find those in a place where they have to look for something new almost immediately. So that's where I was originally came in at because these people were really good at working hard at the thing, but they did not have an opportunity to try to sell and market themselves in a market, especially this one, which is harder than ever. And advisors understood that that was beyond their capacity to help these clients in these ways, and they need an expert to bring in. And that's where I come in. And so I think clients love it because I'm teaching them things that they assume they should have known, but were never taught. So that's an empowering part of it. Advisors win because they're seen as this central location of experts and support. And I think everybody wins because we client becomes happier, they resume making more money, they're not dipping into their AUMs. And I think it's a differentiator for an advisor, right? Yes, they have the estate planners and the CPAs and you know the tax advisors, um, but not every advisor has a career coach kind of on the bench. And so I think that's super helpful. And then as we mentioned before, we recorded what's coming up most recently is I'm being brought in to help with the children of clients. Advisors are helping their clients 529 college savings and invest hundreds of thousands of dollars in higher education. And these children are graduating in this really tough market, and there is negative ROI in that college investment. And so they're bringing me in to teach these young, capable, passionate people how do you navigate this market? And so, again, it becomes a win-win and it becomes a differentiator. And I love it because it's things that we're not taught, like in school, and so it's helping these advisors add greater value, maintain, you know, high AUMs, and just be more embedded in their clients' lives because I think they want to be, because why else would you want to be in this kind of line of work?

SPEAKER_03 13:49

Yeah, and I will say that similar to what you've just shared here, that has come up a lot with the firms that we work for, is it's not uncommon to meet with a executive, you know, C-suite level client, and they're saying, Ashley, like I'm really burned out, like I don't really want to be doing this, or they're in private equity, right? And it's like, yeah, I'm making really big income, but I'm missing time with my family. And I want to do something different, but I have no idea like what I could even do. And as a planner, most of the planners, they're like, hey, like you can take a risk. You have the money there, like you have this safety net. Like it's okay to go out and make less or to prioritize, you know, something different within your lifestyle. And at least what I noticed, not that that's wrong or bad, like all that is accurate. And the client absolutely needs to hear and to know that. But it doesn't, it seems like the clients still say stuck, right? Like stuck in the sense of, okay, I hear you, but it doesn't solve this. Like, I'm lost. Like, what would I even do? Like what I have no idea where to start. Can you maybe drop some wisdom, like for those types of clients? And maybe this is also selfishly for myself. Um, so I can steal like some Colby wisdom here. Like, how do you go about approaching? And you mentioned a little bit kind of some of the things you talked about, but if we can think about this type of client, like how do you go about like approaching a client like that where the money is there, they have the ability to take a risk, they have the skills, obviously, they have the quote resume to go out and do probably whatever they want, but they're just lost.

SPEAKER_00 15:40

Yeah. So I think kind of like we talked about before, let's talk about the pains. Ask that client, like, what about the work or the lifestyle it's giving you that you don't want to do anymore? I think understanding what you don't want is part of the equation of figuring out what you do want. So I think that's the first thing about it. How do you want the new job to change your lifestyle or to change the work you do, who you do it for? I think that's a prime question there. And say, you know, I would say the same thing. What problems do you like solving? Where do you tend to get lost in the work? Because the thing that I joke about is that if all of our job titles were true to what we did all day, we would all be professional email responders and meeting attendees.

SPEAKER_02 16:26

Oh God, that sounds awful.

SPEAKER_00 16:29

But it's the problems that we solve, it's the challenges that we take on, it's the opportunities that we get to execute upon in those conversations on those keyboards that give us the energy.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:39

Right. And really what I do is I help my clients align their work to the energy that they want to create in their lives. Right. And so the advisor's job there is to prod and poke a little bit to really understand what is that core issue. Because you mentioned work-life balance, that's great. Well, what are you missing? Why are you missing it? And is it simply just a boundary issue, which is I also help my clients with, is like, how do you how do you say no to the powers that be at your company so that you can still contribute in the way that you want without selling your soul on the back end? I think a really powerful question they can ask that I ask my clients all the time is is it what you're doing or is it where you're doing it?

SPEAKER_03 17:15

That's a good one.

SPEAKER_00 17:16

Because I think it's really hard to sometimes disconnect the work from the environment. And if you love what you do, but it's a toxic environment or they're going nowhere, or you know the you know the tea leaves are coming up here, then that's a different question than like if I look at one more TPS report, I'm gonna go mad. Right. So I think that's a good thing there. And then understanding, yeah, what are those financial risks? But I think you mentioned the stuckness is they could quit today and I'm sure they'd be fine, but they need purpose, they need direction in it, they need actionable strategy. And maybe for the first time ever, they don't know what to do. And especially for high achievers and high earners, it's a very, very uncomfortable place to be in. And they don't, they'd rather know what they're doing in a place they hate than exploring things they want and being kind of in free fall.

SPEAKER_03 18:05

Yeah, our brains don't like that. Like they it does not like uncertainty. And so it, you know, by and large, like we are gonna continue to do something, be a part of some type of system, right? If speaking very generically broadly here, if it provides certainty, even if we don't like what the certainty is, because to not know is really uncomfortable. And our brain works very hard to make sure that we are not experiencing discomfort, both physically, but also psychologically, emotionally. So, okay, talking a little bit about this like client avatar example scenario, whatever it is, has me wondering is there, you know, if I'm thinking about like so the advisors that are listening, certainly like our clients, uh Beyond the Plans clients, our firms, if they're thinking, like, well, hey, I like I've got these clients, but I don't know, like, are they appropriate for career coaching? What if they're so stuck, like that they're, you know, not ready for action? My partner, Meg, like we talk a lot about the theoretical model of change, trans theoretical model of change and like stages of change. And like maybe this client is like in need of career coaching, but it's just maybe they're not appropriate for it. They're not ready. Are there signs that like advisors should be thinking about or considering when referring to a career coach or bringing you in? And like, hey, is this client ready for it? Or maybe they're not?

SPEAKER_00 19:32

It's a really good question. In terms of readiness, I think if there's pain there and there's openness to like at least examine the pain, not solve it, right? Like, not take the magic pill, not like go train for the marathon, solve it, but just like examine it and get curious of what's happening. I think that's a key sign, right? Because, you know, a lot of my partner firms, they gift out, you know, ad hoc coaching hours to their clients to me. And there are clients where I work with just an hour and it gives them enough of a lift, it gives them enough perspective. You know, maybe they just were having a bad week or they couldn't see the light in the end of the tunnel yet, and they need some help there. I, you know, as long as they're open to change, I'm open to a conversation. And I think, I mean, the fact that your clients are coming to you for advice, for perspective, willingly volunteering literal money assets to you and trust, then it sounds like they have an affinity towards valuing expertise. And if they're willing to have the conversation, and if they're breaching it to you, hey, like, I'm really scared about you know, layoffs next quarter. I think that in itself is like, okay, well, let's talk about it. Let's get you prepped. Let's not like wait for the worst possible scenario to happen. Let's get you prepped so that you're ready when the news comes down, you're not panicking when it does. And so as long as that person is open to at least one hour of conversation, I'd be happy to have it with them. And if they're not, I could I never want to be a punishment. Like I never want to be the warden in the in the detention hall. So as long as they're willing to have that conversation and just realize like I'm lost, I don't know what to do, and I'm open to exploring solutions, that's exactly where I can come in.

SPEAKER_03 21:22

Yeah, that openness and willingness. Sometimes it does spark like further interest. I think about it like planting seeds. You know, it might take a while, it might take a lot of nurturing, a lot of sunshine, a lot of water, a lot of love, a lot of speaking over, validation for those that talk to their plants. You might take a lot of that in order to help, you know, this client maybe realize, oh, maybe I am ready to take some steps. But also sometimes seeds they don't bloom. And that's okay too. To your point, though, just even being willing, I think, to be open to like a conversation. Sometimes it can spark thought. Or lead to other further action or decisions that can ultimately be helpful.

SPEAKER_00 22:07

You mentioned one thing here earlier in the episode, Ashley, is that like, oh, I wish I knew somebody like you when I was younger. I hear that so often. And I think it's part education, but part also that we assume we have to like know how to be successful innately. That the people who are successful just they were born or built like this. But knowing that these what I teach are acquired skills for self-actualization, self-ownership, effective communication, you know, self-exploration, self-feedback, those are things that I wasn't born with. I had to kind of, you know, do some baptisms by fire to figure that out for myself. And I think if somebody is willing to have a conversation and is willing to learn new things and to know that, like, because you see it, like there's so much shame around our identities, especially at work. And so knowing that, like, yeah, you don't know how to write a resume because you weren't taught it, or you were taught it 25 years ago when you were doing it on a type of writer, maybe like like you don't don't feel shameful that you don't know these things because you never expected to. So if you're presented with an opportunity to learn these things and be taught these things, you know, maybe it's in your best interest.

SPEAKER_03 23:23

I love that. I'm really glad that you said that because you're right. I think a lot of this, you know, in when it comes to success, just maybe more general career-wise, right? Like there are certain skills. And, you know, yeah, maybe there is some luck, some privilege along the way too. But like there's a lot of skill involved, you know, in it for many, many folks. And I could see, like, I'm thinking about my own kids. And granted, they're you know 12 and 13 right now, but still, you know, it's like the curse of having a therapist for a mom is that you know she thinks about like your like well-being not just now, but also forever. Forever. Uh, yeah. But I think about, you know, for Cam and Abs, just these would be skills that I would want them to learn, no matter what they end up, you know, doing. Just to know, like, hey, I've got the confidence to know how to be successful and go after the things that I want. You know, I can see where while I might be fine in my career, well, pending, right? That's maybe debatable. Like, yeah, I am fine like with where I am, but I want my, you know, children who are coming up, right, to be able to learn this. Having somebody like you in their corner to be able to say, listen, go talk to Colby. Like, he's your man. He's gonna teach you these things there. I consider that being incredibly valuable, especially for a firm, as we kind of talked about earlier, just that differentiator piece, adding value and connecting from that standpoint.

SPEAKER_00 24:50

I mean, I think it's so interesting because families spend so much time getting their kids prepared to go to college. We talked about savings, 529s, but there's also like SAT prep and college admissions coaches and essay writers, right? And I think, especially in this day and age, the misconception is once the kids launch into college, the college will teach the children the real world skills needed to succeed beyond college.

SPEAKER_03 25:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:17

It's just, I don't know if it's ever been the case because the market has just been favorable to new college grads. But as of today, the scary part is the unemployment for a new college grad under 25 is higher than the average unemployment rate for everybody.

SPEAKER_01 25:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:34

It's really scary. And so I think as parents have invested time, energy, sweat tears, and getting their kids from senior year of high school to freshman year of college, I think there's opportunity to get your kids prepared from senior year of college into first year of true adulthood and teaching them these skills and getting them refined. Because I do know in taking the missteps, kind of having to learn the pain firsthand and guess and check my way through my 20s. If you can get some extra support and help and guidance, it allows you to be freer. It allows you, yes, to earn more money, but also I think have a lifestyle and a career that is by design versus a majority of people who have it simply kind of on accident.

SPEAKER_03 26:21

Yeah. And even to like get to a place where going back to like the stuck client, they find themselves in a position where it's like, hey, this is a good gig. Like this, I've got it good, but I maybe have aspirations of doing something different, but I don't know how to make that leap or jump, or even if I could or should like, how would I even do that? So I'll just kind of stay here and like it's okay, good enough. Like I just think about wow, like if that person had the skills and confidence that they could be like, you know what? This is pretty good. It's okay, but I've got aspirations. And you know what? More than aspirations, like I have the skills to know how to, you know, translate that aspiration into actionable steps. And here's how I'm gonna do that. Good golly, like that would be just, you know, fantastic for that person to feel like they don't have to stay stuck, that there is another way out.

SPEAKER_00 27:15

Yeah, like you're in control and you kind of you are able to dictate the level of freedom you want, right? Because again, with that the lack of stuckness and knowing that you have a way out, that you don't have the golden half, that you are not lacking in the right skills, or that you could never talk to that person. Like, I think that keeps people really stuck and they they think that they're just not good enough or they weren't born to have those conversations or take on this challenge. But and if you're willing to learn, willing to be bad at it for a little bit and then get really good at it, then not to be hyperbolic or cliche, but this guy really is the limit.

SPEAKER_03 27:54

Yeah, I would agree. Well, Colby, as we start to wrap things up, sadly, this is always the worst part of the show. I always say sadly because it is. What would you like to maybe just leave our audience with for those advisors, for those that are listening here? Is there something maybe we didn't talk about or something that you would like to leave them with?

SPEAKER_00 28:15

I mean, I think it's having an understanding of not only financially, but emotionally, mentally, physically, how is your clients' careers playing out in their lives? Right. Because even if they make a ton of money, if they're miserable, that's not a lifestyle I'm assuming you want your clients to live. And Ashley, as you mentioned earlier, like people like me exist out there, right? There are people out there who are guiding others to find their mission, their purpose, and a path that they've chosen versus maybe felt like they've been sent a life sentence to. And so if you want to be more embedded, add more value, and see your clients happier, healthier, and I would argue also too, making more money. Because when you love what you do and you're really damn good at it, you add more value, you can command more value, and you make more money, you get more stocks, you get ownership investing. Like again, it's a win-win for everybody. And so I think instead of just kind of positioning yourself as somebody who takes in the money after it's made, if you can front-end your support and your services to people who say, Well, how do we help you make more of it? How do we help you do more of what you love, then it's a full circle moment for you as an advisor. And you're seeing that much more of a caring, human-focused, heart-centered expert in your clients' lives.

SPEAKER_03 29:38

Yeah, well said. Well said, Colby. All right, if people want more Colby in their life, uh, if they're like, this guy is super awesome, super great, want to have a conversation with him. Where can people find you?

SPEAKER_00 29:50

Best place to find me is on LinkedIn, Colby Goodman, K-O-L-B-Y, Goodman like Goodman. Feel free to reach out, connect, let me know you heard me here, uh, and I'd be happy to chat.

SPEAKER_03 30:01

Awesome. Thank you, Colby. We appreciate you coming on and sharing all of your wisdom, all of your insights here with not just our audience, but also with me too. So I'm leaving with a few. I love it when I can learn from my guests, selfishly. I love it when I have people on that I can learn from. So thank you for coming on. And thank you to all of you for allowing Colby and I into your ears and into your mind today. If you found this conversation valuable, if it resonated with you in some type of way, I think I speak for Colby and I in saying that we both would love to keep the connection going. You can find Colby on LinkedIn. I also hang out there way too much. Uh, shoot me a message, find beyond there, like our content, share it, whatever it is that you are called to. But let's hang out there. And if you'd like a little bit more beyond the plan in your life, you can head over to our website, beyondthefp.com, sign up for our newsletter where we share strategies and insights, all centered around how to integrate the human side of planning into your firm. But most importantly, my friends, make sure to follow the show wherever you get your podcasts so that you never miss a future conversation like this one. As always, remember, finances don't have feelings, but your clients do. Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going beyond. Thanks for joining me on this episode of Planning and Beyond. I hope you found today's insights valuable and inspiring for both your practice and your personal growth. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. Your feedback helps us reach more advisors like you who are dedicated to making a difference. For more resources, tips, and to continue the conversation, visit our website at beyondthefp.com. You'll find articles, tools, and information about upcoming episodes designed to support your journey and practice. Stay connected with us on social media and never miss an update. Follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn. And remember, the best way to grow is to keep learning and sharing. Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going beyond.