SPEAKER_00 0:00

Inspiration, Bain and Company said an inspired worker is 125% more productive. 125% more productive than a satisfied worker. You know, half your workers could disappear and you'd actually be a better, be more productive as a business. So what we do, what happens in life planning is we inspire people far more than 125%. And that's that fire that you're talking about. Is that, and it builds from the listening that we were talking about, builds from the moment by moment, really being there in a way that the client feels I'm safe here. They're really listening to me, they really support me. What we primarily notice in life planning, at least the way I train it, is we notice those places that call for empathy, and we notice those places where the client is excited or inspired in their own life.

SPEAKER_02 0:53

Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the show where financial planning meets human understanding. As an exceptional financial advisor, you know that financial planning is about more than just numbers. It's about giving clients the clarity they need to align their money with what matters most, which is why each episode is designed with that goal in mind. You'll learn how to uncover the psychology behind client decisions and gain insights and behavioral strategies needed to create deeper, more meaningful client relationships. You'll discover techniques for navigating emotional client situations drawn from conversations with leading industry experts in behavioral finance, psychology, communication, and more. Whether it's mastering discovery meetings, handling sensitive client conversations, or understanding what is truly keeping your client stuck, you'll walk away with not only strategies that you can use in your next client meeting, but also the confidence to do so. Oh, yeah, hi. I should probably introduce myself. I'm your host, Ashley Kwamey, a therapist who somehow wandered into the world of financial behavior and kind of decided to stay. My mission is to help you bridge the gap between financial planning and human understanding. Because remember, finances don't have feelings, but your clients do. Let's dive in. Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the podcast where financial planning meets human understanding. I'm your host, Ashley Kwamey, and today I am joined by, I feel like I need like a drummer in the background, like a drum roll, maybe that's what I'm looking for. I don't know, some kind of musical backdrop here. I am joined by George Kinder, who I said before we hit record, like probably doesn't need much of an introduction, at least for this audience. But is it okay, George, if I say that you're the father? I mean, father of like life planning in a bunch of cool stuff. Just some really cool stuff. George Kinder is my guest today, everyone. George, thank you so much for coming on. I am so excited to have you here with us today.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

So glad to be here, Ashley.

SPEAKER_02 3:00

Yeah. So you and I were chatting a little bit before about some work that you're doing. You are currently, at least at the time of this recording, which is the spring of 26, over in London doing some really wonderful work that stems from your most recent book. And I have it right here beside me. If you're listening on audio right now, you may not be able to see it, but I'm just gonna hold it up. The book is the three domains of freedom. Each moment is yours, your life is yours, civilization is yours. So it is a beautiful book, George. I'm grateful that I had the opportunity to read it and to come on here and talk with you about it today. And so I think that's kind of our plan to chat about this work, to chat about how meaningful it is and how advisors can really take and grab hold of this and start to lean into it for themselves individually, with their clients, but even society as a whole. So if you're okay, can we start at the beginning?

SPEAKER_00 3:58

Yeah. Where that is.

SPEAKER_02 4:00

Where is the beginning? Yeah. Let's start at the beginning of the book. How about that? Let's start at the beginning of the book. This book that I mentioned, the three domains of freedom. Now, some people might be making some assumptions around what that means. Maybe they've read it before, but can we talk just high level a little bit? What are the three domains of freedom here that you're talking about? I'd love to hear a little bit beyond. I know you mentioned it in here, but what inspired you to frame your thinking around this framework here in these domains? How did it come together for you?

SPEAKER_00 4:33

Yeah, it's interesting. I think the three domains of freedom is a wonderful summary of my life, of the work that I've done, of my professional life, of my personal life, pretty much of everything. But it's a really small book. You can read it in an hour and a quarter, but it's also profound. And that's what I meant it to be. Because I was, I mean, you know me from the life planning world. Most people do. And life planning to me, in fact, money to me, is really all about freedom. It's all about figuring out how to deliver freedom, both to ourselves and to others. And what some people know, fewer people know, is that I've actually taught mindfulness meditation for over 40 years, practiced for nearly 60, if I go back and count, and done it a lot. And it's about moments. So that's a very different realm of freedom. And then when the banking crisis hit us, I got very concerned about what was happening in the world. I was disturbed in particular, having worked in the financial world for so many years. I thought that my work might have made a difference. And then suddenly people were being laid off, they were losing their mortgages. And all over the world this was happening. And it was hugely related to finance. And I thought, something's wrong. I've got to do something about this before I can retire. And so I went on a world tour asking people everywhere I went, a whole bunch of countries, most of the continents, what would be the nature of a golden civilization if we were able to bring it to you? Because my thought was everybody wants the same thing. Why aren't we doing it? Why aren't we making it happen? So, anyway, so those three areas, and it's interesting, Ashley, I do think of them as separate areas. You know, you and I have been in a world where, you know, therapy has had an influence, life planning has had a huge influence, financial planning has had a huge influence. And it's a world where we identify, right? This is who I am. Right. Money facilitates me being me. And so that's really an incredible place. So the second, there are three subtitles. Each moment is yours, your life is yours, and civilization is yours. So your life is yours is the world you and I are in. We want people to own that, right? To feel that freedom. But a lot of people don't realize that each moment is similarly ours. And many people don't have a practice for it. And we miss so much. I mean, a huge amount, enormous amount. The realm of each moment is yours. There's so many moments. You might have seen me post about how there are a hundred million mind moments between each thought. That listening is a hundred million times as fast as thinking. So there's all this richness of life that is not part of that trajectory of who I am, of how I identify. But wow, domain of freedom, absolutely. And then I think we all of us are troubled when we see that humanity isn't doing good things, isn't really building stuff that we could be proud of for our kids and our grandkids. And so that feels like a hugely important domain of freedom as well. So that was that's kind of the origin of it.

SPEAKER_02 7:40

I love that. I love that. And you said there just kind of it's a culmination, really, of like you're gonna make so much sense when I read it, but now actually hearing you say that, I'm just like, oh, yes, right. Like I can see that. And it makes so much sense. And what a gift, really, it is to the reader to be able to read that. If you're okay, can we go into maybe each of the domains here and explore a little bit, like kind of what's going on? So the first domain, freedom of present moment. This one, George, I have to tell you, those of you that are listening and you, George, know being a therapist, there is a lot of this mindfulness work that has come into the therapy world that we learn about. We learn about through skills, dialectical behavioral therapy, cognitive behavioral therapy. There are just so many of these forms of practice that really bring in this idea and practice of mindfulness and how helpful it can be. So here's the thing: I know this. I'm coming into this book and like I know these things, right? It's important to be present in the moment. And there's a lot of freedom from being present. But when I started reading it, it was like being able to come off autopilot for a second for me. Because, you know, while I might know these things, much of my life, and it's just somewhat kind of the nature. I have two middle school kids, I'm running a business. There is unfortunately more of my time is spent on autopilot than maybe what I would like for it to be. And so to be able to read and start with this first domain, freedom of the present moment, it was this almost like I just felt like I caught my breath of like, oh, okay, I feel like I can just do that. And so I loved it. I ate it up. I actually went back and I don't normally write in books in pencil, but I did. I wrote all through it. But you talk about in here in this first section with this first domain, you write that we must first wake up. And reading this book was a little bit of that waking up kind of moment for me for there. We have to wake up in each moment. Now, I don't want to assume that I know what you mean by wake up, but can you walk us through a little bit of your thoughts? Like, what do you mean by exactly waking up? For someone who maybe is not familiar with mindfulness or that practice, what are maybe some of the invitations or practices that you offer like to readers to be able to do that?

SPEAKER_00 10:12

So, I mean, I could talk for hours and hours just on a single question, Ashley. So, one of the things I mean, I'm I'm thinking a lot about kind of the nature of reality, the nature of the human species, the nature of each of us as individuals, but also about where we're going. So, I I think like a futurist in many ways. And we have constructed ourselves in psychology. Yeah, we've constructed civilization and our businesses on thinking and on thought. And Scientific American came out just after I published the book with a a wonderful study that you know I would have concurred with many, many years ago from my practice, that listening is a hundred million times as fast as thinking. So as I'm looking at what is sustainable in civilization, I'm thinking, gosh, if we're just basing everything on thought, and of course that's AI, AI is just reiterative thought. If we base everything on thought, we're missing a huge amount of who we are, of what reality is. So I'm looking at this next 2,000 years, if I may, and I'm thinking that it's time for us to build civilization, not on thinking, which ends up being regulatory and attorneys and all of these kinds of things, not to mention identification and clinging to things, but base it on listening these next 2,000 years. So I know that's I'm I'm just throwing things wild, bold stuff out at you.

SPEAKER_01 11:39

Listen, you hear, I'm like, yes. All right, all right.

SPEAKER_00 11:43

And so one of the ways that thinking is beautiful, one of my favorite of all the therapists, and I'm sure you studied him in depth, is Carl Rogers, who is, you know, the unconditional positive regard is like the essence of great life planning. That's what we train our life planners. Just drop all the thoughts in unconditional positive regard and look to bring the person to their dream of freedom just through that engagement and engagement like that. So listening, the practical stuff and down to individual moments, a hundred million times as fast. So between each of our thoughts, it's like there's a hundred million moments. And my understanding from years of practice of mindfulness, mindfulness is a simple practice to do it. You just go back and you watch your breath, you watch physical sensations, primarily you let your thoughts go. So, as a listener, what we train, you know, in in evoke and in life planning is we train people to listen with their whole body. So they're not just listening to thinking. So that's how you get many, many, many more moments. And we may we do think really slowly. Cognitive thinking is relatively slow, but if we open ourselves instead to what the experiences are in our body, experiences of feelings, experiences are just sensations, experiences of of nuances of movement as we look at things, experiences of sounds. And this is what mindfulness does is that it drops that ego center so that we are more open to all the data that's coming in. A, how much more data we'll have in terms of being able to make decisions and think through things with people. But B, if we allow that space to come inside of ourselves, we're gaining a huge amount of wisdom. So when I talk about waking up, it's about beginning to notice those things and being aware and awake in them. My favorite way to do it is to just walk out the door and be in Mother Nature because suddenly she's there with you and is speaking with all the temperature changes, the wind changes, all these things. I mean, so quickly, you couldn't possibly think about each one, but you can experience them. That's waking up.

SPEAKER_02 13:52

Yeah. What you were saying about being able to when we wake up, right? And we lead with listening, you know, in my mind, what I think about is I know what this does for me as a clinician now, but as an advisor, just to connect like some of these dots here, you know, for them, being able to lead with listening, being able to wake up in the moment you receive so much more. And that information and data and wisdom is incredibly helpful for you, just in terms of how you come to know your client and how then you are able to craft an approach, a strategy, you name it, a response that is really truly like tailored to them. So waking up, right, is so beneficial for you as an individual. And I think that's what I love a lot, George, about your work is that so much of this is it is about benefiting like the advisor, like the person. It's improving self of the person here. But when we do that, when we start there, it carries over into how I work with clients. And we end up becoming, I think, a better practitioner as a result of that. I would imagine you have. I don't want to assume like have you seen that?

SPEAKER_00 15:01

Absolutely. And I mean, pardon me for being so deep about this, but it is deep. This particular realm, the realm of each moment is yours, because we can't articulate those hundred million moments. But what I'd like to say about your notion that we go deeper or we're able to be more connected to the client, I would argue that our authenticity moves at the pace of mother nature. So our authenticity moves at the pace of this listening. And that what happens when you're with someone, where you can experience their authenticity, you can't articulate it, you don't, but you just feel comfortable with them and you feel connected, right? Yeah. And what happens is it's like vibrational. So the client automatically will be more connected to someone who is more connected to themselves. And then from that connection to ourselves, we also realize we don't have to ask a bunch of questions. We don't have to go into a bunch of stories. All we have to do is hold space. And if we do it in an elegant way that's thoughtful, kind, engaged, unconditionally engaged, the client's going to reveal everything we need to know. And then we craft the plan from that.

SPEAKER_02 16:09

Something that we talk about a lot is just the teaching of how to hold space and what does that really mean? Because it can sound a bit woo-woo, right? But if we can hold space and start with ourselves, how do we hold space for ourselves? And some of that is by grabbing these little moments, right? And being present and waking up, it just expands that skill set of being able to do it then with clients as well, which is really transformative work. So you and I are like singing the same song here, George.

SPEAKER_00 16:37

Let me just say one more thing for the listener, because a lot of times, you know, we grab onto moments, and particularly with a client, we want to remember this or that. William Blake had a wonderful quatrain poem, little poem, and it's in the masculine tense. And it goes, He who binds to himself a joy does the winged life destroy. But he who kisses a joy as it flies lives in eternity, sunrise. And it's it's profound, and it's very much about our engagement with a client. That if you can be with a client where you are just receiving all of that and kind of kissing those wonderful, intimate moments and letting them fly, but they're touching you and you're just aware of them without having to cling to them, you're going to be a much more successful advisor.

SPEAKER_02 17:24

Oh, I love that. Envisioning this really nice, lovely, like quote graphic here, George, with you and like some really pretty bird kind of in the background as you're doing. I just love that. I think that's wonderful. So, domain two, if we move on to domain two, it's really, I don't know if I would say it's at the heart of the life planning, you know, work that you've built. You've described it as helping clients discover that their life is truly theirs, which is fantastic. But how does domain two build on maybe the present moment awareness of domain one? And I don't know, do you see this as kind of you said earlier that you see them as separate, but is it, I mean, kind of a sequence of like, let's master domain one first, and maybe then we can go on to master domain two. How do you see this?

SPEAKER_00 18:13

I put them in that order because I think that domain one is the most profound. Sure. And because it's most profound and most subtle, it's hard to master. It's a lot of work. I mean, there's a lot of a lot of work that needs to be done to do that. So practice meditation, practice unconditional positive regard for years, and you just keep getting better and better and better at it. So you were asking about what does it relate to in terms of us, our advice? I think the more that we, as advisors, are grounded in that ourselves, the more that we experience the clients as they are, and the more they know that, they feel that, and they want to come back and share more and more with you. So that's extremely valuable for an advisor because it builds, it's I call when in one of my books I talk about mindfulness as being inner listening, and that's builds on that. Often, if someone asks me which of these, you know, George, I want to start with one of these. Which one should I start with? I actually say start with getting life planned. And the reason is that we are so attached to who we are, to our self-story. All of us are.

SPEAKER_02 19:18

Very true, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:19

And we see it as a progression, we see of it as movements, sometimes we feel like a failure, sometimes we feel like a fraud, sometimes we feel like a glorious success. And we have this whole range of things. And what happens if we're not living our life plan? And living it includes a passionate pursuit of it. So that's part of living it. So if you're not living your life plan, you're gonna be, to use classic psychological terminology, you're gonna be much more neurotic than if you are living your life plan. And if you are living your life plan, so much of those questions of can I do this? Why am I getting blocked in this and all this, they just die down because you know, I'm on my path. I'm doing it, and happen. And yeah, I blow it now and then, but I'm going for it. I've got it. So when you know that and you live with that understanding, and it is something that you keep checking back in, like the three questions and that kind of thing, come back to them. But once you've got that, it's so much easier for you to meet individual moments without being stuck in neurotic patterns, without being stuck with greed or aversion or or clinging or lethargy or depression or any of those things. Because living your life plan frees you from most of the things that Freud got us all concerned about.

SPEAKER_02 20:32

Oh, yeah. Oh, Freud.

SPEAKER_00 20:36

Listen.

SPEAKER_02 20:37

It takes me back. I can't like think about him or without like some kind of laughter. Although his work at the time was profound. Like, anyway, this is not about Freud. That's for another podcast, another day. Some of what I have found is that you mentioned kind of the three questions, but in this domain of, you know, your life is yours. It's interesting to me when I was introduced to your work several years ago and transitioned over into what I call the dark side of financial planning, transition to the dark side. And I discovered your work in the three questions and then started working with firms and coaching advisors. It was interesting to me how many of them were using the three questions and believed in this idea of the client's life is theirs and I want to help them to reach that and to live that fully. But the advisor themselves had not gone through the three questions. And that was, I guess, just very interesting to me. Not a judgment by any means, but just how is it possible that we can truly be helpful in helping a client to live their life to help them ensure that their life is theirs if we ourself maybe have not started that journey? And I'm just curious your thoughts in this work and also in coaching and training so many advisors.

SPEAKER_00 21:54

I'm totally with you, at least I think I am. Uh, and that is no, how can you possibly coach somebody? Or it's not even coach. It's release them into their dream of freedom. How can you possibly do that if you don't know your own and you weren't haven't practiced your own? So all those people who were doing that never studied with me. Because the first thing we do, if you're studying with me, and one of the cool things about our uh our boat training is that you pair up with another person. They life plan you, you life plan then it's real. It's not play acting.

SPEAKER_02 22:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:24

And so you come out on fire about your own life and you come out with all these skills about how to help someone else realize their. So, no, you know, people are into techniques and skills, and AI has has accelerated that in a way. Oh, look at all these questions you can use and everything. But you have to know yourself. And if you don't, your lack of authenticity is going to speak volumes to your client. And at some point, you might think you have them, but you're going to lose them because they don't quite believe you. They don't quite trust you.

SPEAKER_02 22:52

It's a very felt sense. And even through, you know, the camera, too. So many people now meet virtually too, but it does come through there, that felt sense of, you know, can I trust this person? Are they authentic and living in accordance with what they value and what they say? Justin Costelli, who I believe that you know he and I have talked.

SPEAKER_00 23:15

He's a registered life planner.

SPEAKER_02 23:16

He is. Yes, he is. And a fantastic, fantastic human, fantastic planner. And he has been on and talked about authenticity. And so lovely example of when we start to work on ourselves and put that work first, what shines through is a more authentic version and that attracts and is attractive to clients and it allows us to be able to better help them. Now, you said there that coming out of kind of doing their own life planning and arriving at their, you know, dream of freedom, that they feel people feel like really energized and then advisors do, and that then they're actually able to, you know, is this on the client side like solve problems, like their problems more easily? Maybe you can help me understand a little bit how does arriving at a dream of freedom, how does that help a client to be able to solve some of these financial challenges or maybe not be so stuck anymore?

SPEAKER_00 24:15

Well, I mean, uh one of the reasons you and I've talked just briefly about why I'm over here in the UK. And one of the things I'm attempting to do, I'm bringing all the skills of life planning and mindfulness over here, and I'm putting them into businesses. And I'm doing it to make businesses more productive. And the notion coming out of our work in life planning is that an inspired, and this was a Bain and Company study from 2017, because everybody talks about happiness, and you know, happiness is will make you more 13% more productive, Lord Price says in his happiness project over here in the UK. And I okay. Inspiration, Bain and Company said an inspired worker is 125% more productive than a satisfied worker. Half your workers could disappear and you'd actually be a better, be more productive as a business. So what we do, what happens in in life planning is we inspire people far more than 125%. And that's that fire that you're talking about. And it builds from the listening that we were talking about, builds from the moment by moment, really being there in a way that the client feels I'm safe here. They're really listening to me, they really support me. What we primarily notice in life planning, at least the way I train it, is we notice those places that call for empathy. And we notice those places where the client is excited or inspired in their own life. And that's the whole first meeting. I mean, there's a little bit at the end where we show them, yeah, I'm a financial advisor, you know, this is what you'll get and all this. But first, it could be easily an hour and a half, is 90% the client talking and us just listening. And in that, by paying attention to those two places, the client with all of the concerns. So the places that need empathy are their anxiety, their sorrows, their despair, their frustration, all of those things. And we don't do therapy, but we use therapeutic skill, the therapeutic skill of great listening. So with each one of those, if they come up, we share an empathic gesture, an empathic guttural. We go eyeball to eyeball, we sit forward. We're there, uh toe-to-toe with them. It's all trainable, but it involves being deep in here, knowing yourself really well. But so the client feels more and more safe with all those places where they don't feel safe with an advisor. And then the other thing that happens is that we, whenever they talk about something they're excited about, we go, wow, or cool, or how cool is that? Or this has got to be in your plan, you know. I mean, there are all these things that we just do. And it's just really quick, or we light up, you know, we gesture in a way that's, oh, we don't throw questions back at them at this point because we want them to kind of evolve in their own way. And often I've found that if I do that, if if I don't do that, and they're talking about how they love the Boston Celtics, for instance, what they're really talking about is they're looking at me and they're saying, Can I trust this guy? And they're just talking about little knit nat stuff. And then at some point they realize internally, they go, I I can trust him. And they fall into how their father has control over the estate plan that their trust is dependent on, their kids' trust is dependent on him. And he was abusive. And suddenly that's part of the story, and that's so important for me to know as a financial advisor because I'm going to be engaged around that estate plan and around that relationship with the trustees and all of that kind of stuff. So just listening allows that. Let's go to the exciting part, if I may. I'm talking a lot, but no, I love it.

SPEAKER_02 27:52

Let's go, George. We'll go to the exciting part.

SPEAKER_00 27:54

All right. So what happens is the trust level deepens. They see that they can talk about their aspirations. Most of us hide our aspirations from other people. That's also a place, and we feel a secret shame because we're not really delivering who we know we really are into the world. So we listen in such a way that they come up with those things. And then we ask the three questions. Usually that's in the second meeting. What happens in that process of asking the questions? Then we're we're a little bit more talkative with the client because we're exploring what they've written for the three questions or how they're responding in words. And what we do is we catch and probe just a bit what is most meaningful, what is most exciting to them about everything they've shared over these two meetings. It's typically two meetings with a client in this. And then we craft something that we call the torch. And we go, if as a consequence of our work together, I or we were to deliver this to you, how would that be? And what we've learned to do is craft something so tantalizing that the client can hardly believe that they're going to step into that space. And it's this wonderful mix, and you'll love this coming from the psychological background that you come from. It's this wonderful mix of excitement and anxiety. If you don't have that mix together, there's no energy. So they're so excited, and then they're going, How on earth can I do this? You know, this is sounds so cool. And we go, you're born to do this, you're meant to do this. We're here together, we're going to do this. And they get so excited, and then we go, so this is you. What could possibly get in the way? And their energy's through the roof, and they know that the only block is themselves, or they say nothing can get in the way. And they launch and they come back two weeks later, and so much has been done that they thought wouldn't be done for 15 years.

SPEAKER_02 29:39

It is.

SPEAKER_00 29:40

It's just amazing. That's where the energy is.

SPEAKER_02 29:43

Yeah, no, it makes so much sense. And it is the exciting part. It's the great part. It's uh one of my favorite, some of my favorite moments being part of discovery meetings and being a part of walking through just kind of those three questions with kind of hearing that torch. Like it is one of the pieces that I get really excited and wait for, like in anticipation. I love it. Okay, so domain three civilization is yours. There's a lot here, George, wrapped up in this. And some of it is really important, I would say almost advocacy work that's tied up in this. I'm not gonna take the mic, take your time any longer. Let's jump in here. What is it that you mean when you talk about civilization is yours?

SPEAKER_00 30:21

Yeah, first for us as humanity, and then maybe us us for advisors. But I think most of us in America, I'm beginning to question this. I think others are as well. Most of us in America were raised, our parents told us, you're in a democracy. The democracy is yours. This is your country, and you craft it. Most of us heard that message, I think. And yet now we find ourselves with enormous doubt about it. There was just a study about narcissism and countries. And America was not at the top with narcissism. There was, in fact, there were some surprises there. It was a very interesting study. But they did a number of different kinds of psychological things about different countries. The place where America was far and away at the top is do you trust your neighbor or do you not trust your neighbor? Do you trust your fellow citizen or do you not trust your fellow citizen? And America was dead last or first in the in the worst of it. We don't trust each other. We've come to a place that is hard for us to believe, hard for us to understand, and devastating. And I think for many of us, we're kind of burying it and we're going along our life because mostly we're with friends with who we like, we're with families, we're with community we like, we do good things, we got our kids, it's all good. And so there's a way in which we, I think we are burying our head in the sands. And Canada, by the way, is like number one. It's just in total contrast. It's really interesting. So civilization is yours. I think one of the ways that we got to this place was that we didn't take seriously enough that the system that we live in is ours and is meant to be, it is meant to be the best of humanity. We're a species. We're supposed to create the best of humanity. So, and we are a species that thinks and puts together our thoughts into a structure of civilization. If that civilization, instead of producing, I mean, one of the questions I ask is after 250 years of enormous, incredible growth, that we're all very lucky to have lived through a lot of it, we don't find as a result of the competition in a capitalist system, and as a result of the tremendous leverage that we get through capital and loans and that kind of thing, if we don't find, as a consequence of that, that competition, the very best of humanity rising to the top of every hierarchy of power after 250 years, and instead we find, most people think this, but not everybody, that the earth might be in trouble, democracy might be in trouble, certainly the truth is in trouble, our trusting of each other is in trouble, our kids have superheroes and don't have real heroes. Seeing this kind of world kind of emerge, in economics, the term for it is negative externalities. And these are unintended consequences. Most of them are unintended. Now we begin to wonder if they were intended. Also, the incredible gross inequity of uh just in America, three billionaires owning as much as 180 million people. So those are consequences of the system. And if civilization is ours and we are doing that, we need to take ownership of that and go, do we want the best of humanity? Or do we want this stuff to keep going on where every new thing is AI and it's now messing up in all these ways we're concerned about? Why? Why aren't we producing things that automatically are trustworthy and humane in everything they do? That's what that the purpose of that chapter is, is that I actually came up with a single-sentence legislative proposal I call fiduciary in all things. And I'm promoting it. It's one of the things I'm doing kind of pro bono, where if we put it into law, it would insist in a single sentence that every institution put truth ahead of their own self-concern. Imagine that. I mean, why isn't that there automatically anyway? Truth in humanity and the planet and democracy, ahead of their own self-concern. Why would we ever allow the leveraged power of capitalism and the power of media that it controls and the political power to violate our basic values that we want our kids to live into for generations? So that's where it ultimately led to. I feel that this is very important that if we don't take this on now, for the first time in history of humanity, we're global, right? We can speak to people all over the world. We can travel all over the world. Our cell phones can connect. 90% of humanity has smartphones. Wow. So if we can, if they were required to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, I think probably we could make pretty good decisions. So anyway, that was it's a cry out, that last bit that, hey, we want the best of humanity. Let's make sure it happens. Let's do something about it.

SPEAKER_02 34:56

And it starts with us grabbing hold of that moment, being aware of those moments and the present, right? It really, if we circle that back, like it really then just starts there. It comes full circle. George, as we start to wind things down, unfortunately, sadly, there's probably like three hours worth of conversation. I think you and I could just sit here and have. I wouldn't even say debate, because I don't think it would be debate. I think it would just be having a lovely conversation. What is your hope that listeners who read this book, or maybe they have read the book, what is your hope that they take away from it or that it does for them specifically?

SPEAKER_00 35:34

Yeah. Well, I'm thinking, you know, here, your podcast is primarily addressed to advisors, financial advisors.

SPEAKER_01 35:42

And my mom. Right, and your mom.

SPEAKER_00 35:45

And one of these days, maybe your kids, if they they're willing to listen.

SPEAKER_01 35:48

I don't know, maybe, but I think it's advisors and my mom and dad.

SPEAKER_00 35:52

So cool. Well, I think for advisors in particular, just to know that this quality of listening and mindfulness is a good practice. Mindfulness is the practice toward the mastery of the present moment. So it develops this inner listening. So accumulating better listening is going to make you more authentic and more present for the client. And you're going to be able to give them what I think you all really want, which is we want to deliver them into their dream of freedom. Getting life planned and yourself and doing those three questions and living up to them and challenging yourself. So these are two that are really directly related. They're clearly related to financial advisors. The third one really is related to financial advisors too. I call that legislative proposal fiduciary, fiduciary in all things. And I called that, I called it that in part because of the community that you and I hang out in. I love this community. And most of the people in this community consider themselves as fiduciaries to their clients. And my challenge is let's take it larger, it's great to be with your clients. I think we have failed in many ways by not challenging the industry around us. Imagine if every bank, if every insurance company was fiduciary in all things, the way we just define it. And yet we know they're not. They're not even fiduciary to the clients. But we love it. We make money from it. You know, we have a profitable business from it. I think it's time for us to challenge them and say, let's fix things. We do it, we want you to do it too. And elevate that fiduciary standard so that civilization makes it theirs, so that we can have not just another 250 years, but another couple of thousand years of great development. And here the development is really human development. It's not just money.

SPEAKER_02 37:52

Yeah, I love that. All right, George. If people want more George Kinder in their life, if they're listening to this and they're like, oh, I need more George. Where can they find you? Where can they connect with you? Where can they fill their cup?

SPEAKER_00 38:04

Well, I mean, I've got kind of three websites, three or four. There's one George Kinder.com that has a bunch of wild stuff that you and I have not even talked about, not even touched.

SPEAKER_02 38:13

Oh, your poetry, right? Is that where you're okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:16

Poetry, photography, a rock and roll album on Spotify. You know, all that kind of stuff. There's the Kinder Institute is where we do the financial advisory trainings, Kinder Institute.com. The two websites that I'm popularizing right now, the one that's Noble Mission Civilization, is fiduciaryinallthings.com. And then what I think is really cool to read, because I've got a notion that I think organizations, businesses, should be more like living entities, more like trees that are sustainable, than like where all the leaves are listening and changing the world by listening and bringing in all that carbon dioxide and releasing all this oxygen so that all of us can speak to each other. I think that's sustainable. And I think all of our businesses should be more like living entities than like machines or like data processing systems or like AI systems. And that's what my new business is about, is about how do you do that. And it's called the MOOLs, M-O-U-L-E-S.net, not not com.net.

SPEAKER_02 39:21

I love that. I love that. We'll make sure that we include all of that in the show notes so that those people who want more George in their life, they know where to find you, where to look you up, where to engage with your work. Thank you, George, so much for coming on today. It has been a pleasure to engage with you and to have this conversation. And thank you to all of you for listening in on this conversation and allowing George and I into your ears and into your mind today. If this conversation resonated with you, I think I speak for George and saying that we would both love to keep the connection going. But you can find me on LinkedIn where I like to hang out, posting almost, almost daily insights on the human side of planning. George hangs out there too a little bit. I've seen his postings there too, so you can check him out there. You can also head over to our website, www.beyondthefp.com, where we share a monthly newsletter, all at the heart of helping you to do financial planning in a way that is authentic, as George shared, and helping you to be a better listener and just all the things. But most importantly, please make sure to follow the show, this one, Planning and Beyond, wherever you listen to podcasts so that you never miss a future conversation just like this one. And as always, my friends, as you go out into your week, as you go out into those client meetings, remember finances don't have feelings, but your clients do. Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going beyond. Thanks for joining me on this episode of Planning and Beyond. I hope you found today's insights valuable and inspiring for both your practice and your personal growth. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. Your feedback helps us reach more advisors like you who are dedicated to making a difference. For more resources, tips, and to continue the conversation, visit our website at beyondthefp.com. You will find articles, tools, and information about upcoming episodes designed to support your journey and practice. Stay connected with us on social media and never miss an update. Follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn. And remember, the best way to grow is to keep learning and sharing. Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going.