SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the show where financial planning meets human understanding. As an exceptional financial advisor, you know that financial planning is about more than just numbers. It's about giving clients the clarity they need to align their money with what matters most, which is why each episode is designed with that goal in mind. You'll learn how to uncover the psychology behind client decisions and gain insights and behavioral strategies needed to create deeper, more meaningful client relationships. You'll discover techniques for navigating emotional client situations drawn from conversations with leading industry experts in behavioral finance, psychology, communication, and more. Whether it's mastering discovery meanings, handling sensitive client conversations, or understanding what is truly keeping your client stuck, you'll walk away with not only strategies that you can use in your next client meeting, but also the confidence to do so. Oh yeah, hi. I should probably introduce myself. I'm your host, Ashley Kwame, a therapist who somehow wandered into the world of financial behavior and kind of decided to stay. My mission is to help you bridge the gap between financial planning and human understanding. Because remember, finances don't have feelings, but your clients do. Let's dive in. I'm your host, Ashley Kwame, and today I'm joined by Rose Zeelen, who is a CSP, in addition to also being a certified financial transitionist and probably the coolest part, maybe not the coolest part of Rose. I don't know. I don't want to say she is a death doula. Now, if you're hearing that right now and you're like, what? Please know that that was also my reaction. Uh a death doula? Like, I didn't even know that that was such a thing. Um, and so I'm here to tell you that one, it is a thing, and that Rose is doing it in addition to also working and being a financial planner and has found a beautiful, lovely way to kind of bring a lot of this uh together. And so I'm not gonna spoil things, but um, Rose is here to really share a little bit more about what we're gonna be talking about, which is really supporting clients who are in acute crisis. And so that could be death. Um, it could also be um some sort of medical um ailment diagnosis or what have you. But you know, crisis is a little subjective here. Um, but Rose is here to share with us uh some really amazing wisdom, little nuggets all around how you as an advisor can support your clients who are going through a crisis. Rose, thank you so much. Welcome to the show. I'm so grateful that you're here.

SPEAKER_00 3:03

Thank you, Ashley. I'm so honored to be here with you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 3:07

Yeah, awesome. Okay, so I don't think that I did your intro justice. Um, and so because of that, I would love, if you don't mind, uh, would you be willing to maybe just share a little bit about your story? These certifications, like they sound cool. I think two of them advisors are probably pretty familiar with. Um, but I'd love to just hear a little bit of your backstory and how that then culminated in becoming a death doula.

SPEAKER_00 3:34

Yeah, thank you. Yeah, so uh I've been in finance for about 12 years now, started out in property and casualty. I was an advisor with the major broker dealer. Then I moved to the independent space for a couple of years. And I am just this coming Sunday, actually, the January 25th. I don't know when this podcast will air, but January 25th.

SPEAKER_01 3:54

A little bit later than a little bit later than January 25th.

SPEAKER_00 3:56

Yeah. I'm officially launching my own RIA, which is called Golden Thread Collaborative. And I'm really excited about the date of the launching. And I mentioned it specifically regardless of when this is dropping, because it would have been my dad's 65th birthday, and my dad's life and death is really the major thrust behind me doing what I'm doing right now. So that's a pretty key part of the backstory. So um going along in finance, like we do, we kind of find ourselves here. We're building careers, we're doing what we do. And then my dad died in March of 2022, uh, just a few weeks before his 61st birthday. So it was a death too soon, he was too young, and kind of saw it coming, but it was also pretty quick. And in the process of that, and I guess another important part to share is that 20-something years ago, um, through college and a little while after, I had been a birth doula. So I had supported many people um through the labor and delivery process and seeing lots of babies and come into the world and just experiencing the magic of that. And when I was with my dad when he died, and feeling uh, you know, my hand on his chest and feeling his last heartbeat and the final breath leave his body and just being there in that transitional moment. The reflection I walked away with was wow, birth and death are basically the same thing, just completely different. And there's there's a magic to the becoming and going of a soul through a body. And my reflection of that is what led me to learning that death doula's were a thing. At that point, I didn't know. And there have been two times in my life where I felt a calling to any type of work. The first was when I learned what a birth doula was, and the second was when I learned what a death doula was. So, very quickly, a death doula is essentially a birth doula, but the end of life. So it's non-medical support companion advocate for a person who's dying and their circle of care. So it's providing um comfort, it's providing the opportunity for the person who is dying to tell their story, to be witnessed in the grief that they're experiencing, to uh have the opportunity to try and process anything that's unfinished in the time that they have left. We don't always get to wrap up cleanly. So that's not necessarily the goal, but just to offer that as an opportunity without judgment, with full compassion, with just you know, endless runway for a person to say what they need to say. Um, there's a lot of education and guidance in terms of end-of-life options and support and things like that. So that's very high level of the work of a deaf duo. So when I learned what a death doula was after my dad died, I had this moment where I was like, I want to be a CFP death jeweler. I have no idea what that means. I don't know how to do that, but that's what I want to do. I I want to work at the intersection of death and money. And so it took me about three and a half years to figure out how to do it. And the beginning of 2025 was really kind of the birth process of this business. And so now with this official launch coming up on what would have been my dad's 65th birthday, the reason why this has all come to be in the first place is uh I'll be working with people in Colorado who are in their 40s and 50s, who have been diagnosed with a life-limiting illness or a potentially life-limiting illness, and help support them through the financial, logistical, emotional, and existential challenges of dying too soon. And everything that that entails. So my work is uh I am technically an RIA because being CFP, holding myself out for advice, it's part CYA, part just giving myself more room to work with people. But I'm structured a lot more in like a coach. Um, I don't manage assets, I don't uh do long-term planning for people. I'm really there to support people through this really critical transitional time. And you know, foreshadowing to what we're gonna talk about today, the bulk of it, it was supporting clients in acute crisis. It's helping people stabilize after a diagnosis, it's helping people adjust to the new reality that they have just been dealt. And also in the case of a potentially life-limiting diagnosis, mostly cancer, you know, are we gonna scribe it or are we not? But living with this excruciating uncertainty for an indefinite period of time and not knowing what the outcome is going to be. So really helping support that and helping to support other advisors through that as well, because financial advisors, financial planners, we're all just humans. And as humans, many of us are really not comfortable going into that very tender, vulnerable, scary space that kind of forces us to confront our own mortality while we're helping somebody confront their own. So my work is as much with the person with the diagnosis as it is to support financial advisors who have younger clients who are going through this transition.

SPEAKER_01 8:57

What a beautiful story. Uh, I'm I'm very, very touched. Um, and if I probably sat here with it a little bit longer, uh would probably tear up uh, you know, myself. And so I have to, in some ways, kind of keep my composure a little, a little bit because there's just so many, and you know, you're you know, your firm, you practice golden thread, uh collaborative, you know, I the word thread uh is sitting kind of with me right now, just so many like wonderful, beautiful threads there. And I just think about how needed like that type of person is, especially in financial planning. Um, you know, for those of you uh, you know, listening, you know, being a therapist, like working in the trenches of discomfort, of trauma, of hurt, of healing, like there is a certain, you know, like that is very comfortable. But I do think that there is that is very different than working and sitting with someone who is looking at their life ending. And, you know, that just takes an incredibly like special, uh, incredibly like special um person there. And I'm grateful that you exist uh and are excited, are excited like about that. I have always I've always said like, you know, I will sit with anyone in their feelings unless it's around like their own mortality. Um, and that is just not my lane where I'm comfortable. Um, and you know, I'll share some of that. And being my grandmother passed away, um, it's probably been 12 years now. My daughter was very, very young. And I remember sitting in her room, uh, her bedroom, and you know, getting the call, like, hey, your grandma's gonna pass, and like driving the three hours to Charleston, South Carolina, you know, to say goodbye, those final wishes, and sitting with her in the bedroom and like holding her hand as she, you know, took her last breath and also not knowing, very aware of the fact that I didn't know what to do. Like, this is hard. Um, she couldn't process anything. And part of me is grateful for that because I think I would have just like I don't know. I don't know what I would have done. But I will tell you what I the only thing that I do remember being able to do is to sing uh, you know, to her. And that was about as much as I could give, I think, of myself. And not that that is nothing, um, but I just remember that experience and even like clinically take walking away from that kind of later of like, this is not, I'm not gifted in this area. Um, I, you know, I am not gifted. And so I I share that only because it just to say, I guess I have so much respect um and kind of in awe at anyone who can really sit with someone at that intersection, you know, there around death, but then also working through the financial like logistics too. Yeah. Like, oh my goodness. Uh what what an amazing, what an amazing story, Rose. I am, whoo, I'm gonna take a breath. Um, I'm so excited to have you here and to talk all about this. Okay, let's, let's, uh I'm gonna pull back a little bit and put my podcast host hat on. Uh like get the job done here. I feel like someone needs to be like kind of behind me, like we're like, get it together, man.

SPEAKER_00 12:30

Like we always have the opportunity multi-part conversations here if you want to go into anything else.

SPEAKER_01 12:37

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I feel like I might, I might need to. Okay, let's talk about supporting clients through acute crisis. Now, you talked about kind of end of life, end of life stuff. I guess maybe let's start with you, you did you did this a little bit, um, and maybe we can put a little bit more definition to like how do you define acute crisis?

SPEAKER_00 13:00

Yeah, thank you. So acute crisis is um to answer that, I'm gonna reference something else real quick. So, my one of my certifications is the certified financial transitionist. And in the financial transition work, one of the frameworks that we use is a four stages of transition model that includes anticipation of a change that's coming, like anticipation of retirement, anticipation of a death, anticipation of a birth, whatever. Then there's the event that happens, and that's considered an ending because what was is no longer. And we have we have ended that and we're now at the very beginning of beginning what's coming next. And then we move into a passage phase where we're kind of integrating that change and and working through all of that towards a new normal. And that's the fourth stage. So I give that four-stage model that comes from the Financial Transition Institute because acute crisis at its most basic definition is the process of transition without anticipation. We are thrust into major life change without asking for it, without seeing it coming. It's kind of like the T-bone event in life. So at some nonsense, little to no anticipation, there's often the perception of a loss of control, and that can feel very threatening. So there's often a heightened nervous system response of extreme stress, potentially a trauma response to what's happening, depending on how it is perceived by the person. Um, the event itself is typically pretty time-limited, but it's extraordinarily intense as well. It kind of overwhelms our capacity to handle what's coming at us. With that, it disrupts our normal functioning and it just demands immediate attention. It's kind of like a five-alarm fire, just everything else fades away. This becomes the 24-seven thing that we are dealing with. So that's how I'm defining acute crisis. And an important thing to understand about it is that it can be both an external event or an internal event. So the external would be like the sudden death of a loved one. An internal one can be a crisis of faith, like that, you know, some people experience this moment where they're like, I don't, I think God is dead, or you know, whatever, whatever it might be. And all of a sudden, everything that they've known and understood about life is kind of over. So it can be internal, external. It can also be positive or negative. And again, those are very subjective definitions, but just to give some examples and to understand as a planner, the importance of knowing whether the client and their mostly their community of care, their circle of support is perceiving the event as positive or negative, has implications. Negative events would be things like the unexpected death of a loved one, uh surprised divorce, sudden lawsuit, uh reputational damage online, something like that, a mass violence incident, being witness or victim in an event like that, um, significant property loss, a natural disaster. Those are all examples. When when we're in an acute crisis event that's negative, the benefit of that, which I say very loosely, is that there comes with a lot of benefit of the doubt socially, because people will be able to see the person who's experiencing that and go, oh, that's a bad thing. Let's show up with casserole, let's show up with cards, let's show up to help with child support, let's give them a place to live, let's show up. So there's typically like the community will circle the wagons to help that person. Whereas it's an acute crisis, you know, this sudden event that we don't see coming that's perceived as positive, like a sudden windfall of money, um, acceptance into a prestigious program, viral fame all of a sudden, you know, like that overnight success, uh, maybe reconciliation with a loved one, you know, these are all positive things. There's less social benefit of the doubt to those acute crisis, positive events. So the person who's experiencing the sudden windfall of money, let's take that as an example, um, are less likely to get sympathy when they're feeling identity crisis because their circle of care might be like, you just came into a couple million dollars. What do you mean you're struggling?

SPEAKER_01 17:21

What do you mean this is hard?

SPEAKER_00 17:22

What's the problem here? Yeah. And so there's a loneliness, there's the potential for loneliness in a positive sun event like that versus a negative one. So that's just an important thing for advisors to know. And a lot of it is in the perception of the person who's experiencing it. So that's that's where I'm coming from.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

Yeah, I like that you distinguished um so I like that you distinguished like the internal and external. Um, that makes a lot of sense. But also with, you know, the, oh, and some of those, I guess, could be maybe some sort of internal. But then you also took it kind of beyond that and said, hey, there's also positive and negative ones. I think sometimes we hear the word crisis and we assume it's negative. But receiving a windfall, um, you know, I think that there are probably a lot of advisors who have experienced that kind of uh client interaction, um, sale of business, you know, an inheritance, uh, you know, what have you. And those are might be positive, but they can also create some crisis, uh, you know, kind of there. And some of it might be planning on the financial side, some of it could be more on the, you know, psychological side of things, uh, but it can just culminate in just kind of this really, I'll say messy. Uh, it can just be a little messy and complicated there. Exactly. Tell me a little bit about, you know, from a as a as a as a financial planner and even, you know, your your work with a being a financial transitionist here, like, what is kind of that role there for like the advisor? Um, you know, client is experiencing an acute crisis. I mean, they might bring a casserole. Um, they might, that's okay. But like, what is their role in terms of working with the client? How do they show up? Maybe this is a loaded question. Uh I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 19:24

Yeah, it's a great question. And I think um the way that I visualize it in my own mind is sort of the role that I have is to create like this shield bubble around the clients to try and buffer the client from unnecessary decision making, from predatory actions upon that person. Because the person who's going through that acute crisis, whether it's positive, negative, internal, external, it's a really vulnerable place to be in. And there's a lot of people coming at them with a lot of opinions about how they should be doing things. And that there can be a lot of pressure to make decisions quickly that the person may or may not be ready to make because their system may or may not be regulated enough to make a grounded decision. So the advisor's role is like I almost see it like dropping a force field around the client to try and just create space where that client doesn't have to make decisions, where they have the opportunity to define what their boundaries are, to create statements that say things like, yes, I believe that your nonprofit is incredibly important and I would like to consider making a gift, but I'm not ready yet. So preparing them with statements that help set and hold boundaries to give them that space, um, and helping make sure that they are not being taken advantage of in any way, shape, or form by family or external factors.

SPEAKER_01 20:49

Right. So how do you then uh that to me that makes a lot of sense is you know being able to, I like that you use the word kind of protect from, you know, I just think about like the decision fatigue and like overload mentally, like emotionally. So I guess I'd be curious, like, how do you explain that then to clients who they call in and are like, oh, Rose, like, you know, my husband just got this diagnosis and you know, that we need we need to talk, we need to, you know, or hey, like the business is selling and we're getting a five million dollar check. And my in-laws found out, and my wife, uh, she went and ran and tell all of the town, like, I guess how how do advisors kind of explain or start saying, like, from a script standpoint, like, hey, this is my role. How would you coach them?

SPEAKER_00 21:42

Um that's a great question. I don't know that I can answer from the script perspective, but I think creating the space for the client to come in and to share everything that's going on first and foremost, the advisor to really connect with where the client. Client is and how they're perceiving what's going on. Because we, again, are just an external person who is watching somebody go through this crisis event. So us tuning in first and foremost to how that person's experiencing the event and how grounded they are or dysregulated they are is first step. Um and that's just a series of open-ended conversations. And our friend Meg Lurks is just brilliant at having questions with that. But um do you talk at all on your podcast about like trauma awareness?

SPEAKER_01 22:33

And yeah, we've had actually several guests come on to talk about um Rakem Sabri around trauma, um financial trauma. Um it's certainly been kind of woven in um too in a lot of other ways. So yes, um uh we do and have talked about trauma. What I'm actually realizing though, maybe right now, and I um perhaps uh could have uh maybe not overstepped, but what I'm realizing is maybe what we should start with. You talked about step one is like what are the steps here for supporting a client who is in acute crisis? So they call and they share the news, albeit positive, albeit negative. Like I guess step one you said is kind of creating that space there with them, that connection, that validation, you know, the support. Like maybe what are the other steps? Walk us through maybe how you might do that if we can think about it, maybe in a steps way. I don't know. That's in that's easy for for how my brain is conceptualizing this.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

Yeah. I think the first is is the assessment of understanding where they're coming from and how they're perceiving it. So what type of behaviors are you seeing them practice? What type of words are they using to describe their situation? So things that would indicate that they are in struggle with what's going on and that we might need to have a more corrected role in helping with that protection piece is um looking for sudden and pronounced changes. So from how we know our client to be on a regular business as usual basis, any shift away from that should be an indication. Looking for things like overwhelm and disorganization, um, intense emotional distress. So, like responses that do not match the situation, whatever that response may be, you know, um, impaired decision making, um, physical signs of stress, which again, here's you know, the art of listening with more than just our ears, but you know, are we seeing clients who are sort of slumped back like this, or just, you know, they weigh a thousand pounds in front of you, or are they like just tense and tight and fidgety and they've got this nervous energy? Like, what is their body physically doing in front of you? Um, and how are they talking about time? How is their perception of time? Often when somebody's in acute crisis, there's a sense of urgency. Everything has to be done all at once. So, really keying into those, the more of those distress signals that you see, the more important it is to then work towards regulating that client and being the calm in the room that helps bring them back to presence. And, you know, borrowing from trauma work, orientation and grounding is one of the most critical things. And there's a lot of really simple tools to that. Um, one of my favorite is called 54321. Where are you familiar with this one? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So a quick description for listeners who are not familiar with it, but it's asking the client to describe five things that they can see around them, four things that they can touch, which could be, you know, I can touch this water bottle. It can be, I can feel the weight of my body sitting on the chair, I can feel the warmth of my cat in my lap, just the sensation of touch. Three things that they can hear, two things that they can smell, and one thing that they can taste. And so just tuning into the senses helps bring somebody back to here and now. That's one very quick activity to working with somebody who's showing these signs of distress. Another one is just really simple breath work, which can be introduced with um, you know, I it looks to me like you're really stressed on noticing your shoulders raised and your fists clenched and your hands shaking. Um, can we just take a couple deep breaths together? Because this is big stuff that's happening in your life. And just taking a couple deep breaths, it doesn't have to be anything big or fancy. Um, but one thing I want to say with that too, that's really important is asking for consent with it. So before introducing any of these, because one of the things that's gone in acute crisis is a sense of agency. It's a it's a lack of control. And so asking for consent is a way of giving back agency in a tiny little bite. And that's a really important step for helping somebody regulate. So um, Ashley, would it be okay if we did a quick little exercise to just come into now and kind of calm our nervous systems together? And asking for permission, doing it as a co-event, something together. It's not the client doing it. There's something wrong with the client. We're digging it together. So those are important elements there. So that would really be like step one and two, probably. One is just the noticing are we in distress? How are they experiencing this? Two is helping them land back. And then the third is really where the arch of this work comes into play of then connecting with the client and deciding what comes next. But we know, because we're not in crisis, that in most circumstances, there's really maybe only two or three things that actually have to happen quickly. Almost everything else can wait. So, one of the tools that comes from uh the Financial Transition Institute is called Now, Soon and Later. That's probably one of Susan Bradley's most famous tools. And the idea behind that, and it's such an effective tool, is to just ask the client to brain dump everything, everything, whether or not it's related to money, just all the swirl that's happening with that sense of urgency and crisis and time distortion that they're experiencing. Get it out and then work with them to break it out into here's what needs to happen now, because this is legitimately uh time-sensitive and critical. Here's what needs to happen soon, but not now. And then here's what can happen later. We're gonna keep track of it. We don't want to lose it, but it's not a top priority right now. So that helps to break down that swirl of the urgency into these bite-sized pieces that again gives um agency and a sense of control back to the individual and also makes it a lot more manageable to move forward. So from there, whatever shows up on the soon list, and that's going to be different for everybody, that's where we can actually start taking action. But there's a lot that happens before we start taking any action from a you know traditional planning sense.

SPEAKER_01 28:55

Sure. Yeah, I like and appreciate that you um talked about just the consent piece and willingness. That's something that um I am very big on, making sure that uh from a permission standpoint, like there is that buy-in. Um, and it is so because we want clients to feel like they have a sense of agency, um, whether they're in crisis or you know, or or not, like that is just incredibly important when it comes to decision making and certainly financial decision making. But I liked this breakdown of the now soon and later, because you're right. Like when clients are in a state of crisis, um, there is that urgency piece. And I think advisors, you know, if they will sit back for just a moment and just think about the last time they had a client come in where there was a crisis, albeit a positive one or even a negative one, um, they they might, you might recall uh that that client did feel like, well, we've got to get this done now. And if we can get this done this week or like today, and like, you know, how soon can we uh, you know, make this happen? And well, if we just move this and like just did this, then there's all of these like strategies. And, you know, I just validate, like, hey, that is normal, like that sense of urgency uh is there, but that is such a great sign for then taking that and going, you know, hey, it seems and it feels like this is really big and it makes a lot of sense to me. And I wonder, could we take a moment to uh, as you said, Rose, like brain dump just all of the things that are swirling around, like in your head? And like I love that Susan Bradley exercise of the now, soon, like later. And I would imagine maybe kind of through that exercise, or that might be the point where I don't know, you can tell me like then for the advisor, they can um suggest, offer even like, hey, this is like where my role can be kind of in this is to help you with, you know, some of these things along the way or making sure um we stay on track with like the now sooner or later. Am I yes, am I getting that right, Rose? Okay.

SPEAKER_00 31:04

100%. Yeah, the financial planner really becomes the keeper of that list. That's that's one thing that we can do to help them, to say, you know, you don't have to carry this alone, you don't have to remember. The when you think of more stuff, send it to me and I will keep track of it for you. So we're gonna be partners in this together. And another thing that could could should shift as you're working with a client in acute crisis is the pacing of meetings. Generally speaking, because they're they're in a state of overwhelm. And even if and when you bring them back to a grounded spot in that moment, it's still this five alarm fire that's happening. So it's gonna be potentially days or weeks, or maybe even a couple months until the urgency has fully passed. So knowing that you're gonna have to bring them back to that moment of calm over and over again, keeping meetings shorter and more frequent during that time because there's less cognitive capacity. There's oh, that's a great point. Yeah, there's just less energy to see things through because it just they're being pulled in a million different directions. So keeping that now, soon and later list and updating it over time, like making new versions of it, and periodically, you know, say maybe a month into it after meeting, maybe for 20 minutes every week for a few weeks, being able to show them the first list that you were working with and the list that you're with now, and like we're making progress, we're getting there. This stuff has moved off the now list. We're shifting things up from soon to now. So it's okay, we're doing it. And that that slowing things down is part of that like protective shield bubble that we put around the client. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:46

Slow, I was I'm glad you mentioned that. That I was gonna kind of tie that back into like, I wonder if that is kind of what we're talking, what we talked about earlier, right? That that shield, that protective bubble. Yeah, right, is saying we have this list, I'll say, right? And like we're gonna slow it down. And I'll be, I love the language there. I'll be the keeper of the list and you know, anything like I'll make sure that we kind of stay on track. Um, that makes a lot of sense to me. One of the, so one of the um presentations that I've given before is on um sensitive conversations. And so um it might be like crisis, you know, types of conversations, events, what have you, some of them that you mentioned earlier. Um, but sensitive just being subjective, it can mean a lot of different things. And one of the things that I have found um and and I talk about in this presentation is that sometimes we leave that conversation and it's like just handled that so great. Like we, you know, we kind of have this plan of like now, soon, later. And like I end it, you know, in the meeting with like, you know, okay, like let me know if you need anything. And they almost put like the onus back on the client to bring things back up. And I'd love to hear your take on this. So I have some thoughts. I have I have some thoughts, some takes on it. Um, but when like a client is in a crisis, um, you know, after they kind of get through the advisor, gets through like maybe this initial like meeting. You talked about kind of meeting cadence there, but what else is important for an advisor to be doing um after kind of the initial uh, I'll say unleashing of what's happening.

SPEAKER_00 34:26

Yeah. Um, you touched on it there. It's making making agreements together. And really important thing you said too is not putting the onus back on the client because I know in my own personal experience, and I definitely have witnessed this from many others going through these types of sudden events, is that very well-meaning people will say, What do you need? I'm here to help. I got you. What can I do? And the feeling when somebody's an overwhelm is like, I have no idea. I don't know what I need. I am so overwhelmed, I don't have the capacity to answer that question. So um this is for the advisor, but also just as a human understanding that when somebody's in crisis, it's really helpful to offer a menu to them. So I don't really know what to do. I don't know what you need, but um, do you have enough food? I'd be happy to stop by with something to throw in your freezer. Can I watch your kids for a little while or can I help with pickup from school for the next couple of weeks? Um, would it be useful if I sent over my son to do some yard work? You know, winter's coming. You're probably not paying attention to leaves right now, but would that be helpful? Or he could walk your dog. So just menu some options. And that gives the person who's overwhelmed to be like, oh, actually, yeah, somebody to walk my dog every day would be such a massive help right now. It didn't even occur to me to think of that, where that I was allowed to ask for something so simple and helpful. So menuing options is good. Um at the end of a meeting, coming up with agreements for next steps and limiting it to one, two, or maximum three agreements for what the next steps are is also a really important piece there as well. Because again, we just want to keep it so bite-sized and having something visual and written for them to take in their hands with them in that moment, not email in their hands that they can fold and keep in their pocket, put on the refrigerator, just physical tangible, do this one thing between now and when we meet in a week. So I think I may have straight a little bit. Did I answer your question?

SPEAKER_01 36:29

No, you did not. Yes, you did. Yeah, like that, it's that after um, that after I want to say, I want to call it an aftercare plan. It's that's not, it's not um, this is where my medical, like mental health brain is getting like confused here from a language standpoint. But yeah, that kind of like after meeting, like action plan there and and taking, taking kind of the uh reins, maybe a little bit more. And I love the menu piece too. Like, hey, here are some options for how I can support um you or would love to be able to support you. And I guess maybe what I would add to that is um, you know, I do encourage advisors to, uh, especially after the initial disclosure of maybe an acute event, is to within like 24 hours, like respond, albeit, you know, a phone call, um, an email or a text, but to communicate at least within 24 hours and thank the client for sharing that. Um, there's, you know, one, just it takes a lot of courage. Um, there's some vulnerability, you know, as you kind of mentioned, it and I think to be able to thank them and say, I'm so glad that you shared that with me, it means a lot that you would trust me with that during this time. Um, I'm honored to like help you or be walk alongside you. You know, if there's however you want to like wordsmith it, I think it's it's it's just important kind of within a very short time frame to acknowledge what they did and what is happening as well. And you never know. Like I've had sometimes like a few advisors say, yeah, like when I did that, like 24-hour check-in um or check back in, like then the client was like, Hey, actually, you know what? After I kind of like settled in, like I thought about this. Could you help me, you know, with this? Or we need to make sure that we check on this. And so I think it's also it can result maybe even, you know, in the client after they're a little more settled, like being able to think through maybe something that they need. Um, maybe I do want a casserole, or hey, actually, I know I told you to to bring a casserole, but I hate casseroles. Yeah. Uh can you just send like Papa John's pizza like instead? I don't know. Yeah. Um there. So, you know, I think I I echo everything that you that you shared there. The menu is so great. I'm gonna use that as a takeaway just in my own personal um life because I'm guilty of that too, of like, hey, let me know what you need, like well-intentioned, but also coming from a bit of just um, yeah, maybe just my own discomfort of wanting to help and not knowing how. And so I think a menu is really just brilliant, really brilliant.

SPEAKER_00 39:14

Yeah, and it's it's empowering on both sides because um one of the common characteristics in an event like this is a feeling of helplessness. Yeah. And that's a it's an incredibly disempowering affect to have is helplessness. And it most of us find helplessness intolerable. And we we want to jump in and we want to do, we want to fix. And so often when somebody's in crisis, we don't need fixes, we just need time, we need space, we need calm. So offering a menu for the person who's offering it, it helps to ameliorate that sense of helplessness. And it also is empowering for the person to say, you know, I don't know what I can do here, but here's some skills and talents and resources that I have that I am willing to offer you. Um, you know, if there's a move involved, I can, I can give you three hours of my time in a truck and I can, I'm strong back, I'm ready to schlep, you know, whatever the case may be. Or um, if you need a thinking partner to think through these, you know, life insurance, death benefit options, I'm more than happy to talk through those things with you. So it's empowering for the person who's offering it, who often feels helpless and has a desire to fix, but it's not thrusting a solution on anybody who may not be ready for solutions or even need a solution. Um, one other thing that I want to say about kind of the the aftercare plan.

unknown 40:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:43

Let's just go with that.

SPEAKER_01 40:44

You know what? I love that you said thank you for that validation, Rose. We're just gonna go into that.

SPEAKER_00 40:48

We're round with their is for the financial advisor to unwaveringly hold their client in high regard because they are going to behave in ways that are not typical for how they typically behave. They may come into the office swinging someday, just combative, angry, irritable. It's not their normal, but they are just not their best selves in this moment. Extending the benefit of the doubt and holding them in high regard through all of this. And you know, if if there is a combativeness or something like that, there's appropriate boundaries, but not to throw them out because they're going through a difficult moment. And recognizing that uh, you know, you made these agreements last time about here's the one thing that we're gonna do between when we meet next time, they may not do that thing. Do not get upset with them, just go back and meet them where they are the next time and continue moving forward in steps. There's no predictable path here, and people are going to behave in unpredictable ways that are out of character with how they normally show up. And it is our job to let them be a mess without trying to fix it and to just continue to respect them and extend them the benefit of the doubt. And that's a really hard thing to do for a lot of us. And it's I know as a planner, I have certainly felt frustration with certain clients who are just not making progress, or I see something that I believe is urgent and needs to be dealt with right away that they're just not ready to deal with yet. It is not my responsibility to feel anxious on their behalf. My responsibility is to just help continue to support that to happen at the timeframe that they are capable of doing it.

SPEAKER_01 43:05

From client meeting facilitation, advisor training and coaching, even client onboarding strategies, we are your implementation partner and dedicated in-house expert. Visit our website at beyondthefp.com to learn more about our services and how we can collaborate to elevate your practice. Together, let's go beyond the plan to deliver meaningful client experiences that foster long-lasting relationships. Now, back to the episode. Yeah, I love that you mentioned that around just holding them in high regard and just understanding that they might be acting and responding in atypical ways. Um, and you know, that process, especially if, you know, if we're talking, I think about things like divorce. Worse and like death. Um, you know, that may not be like one or two meetings. Like that could be months. Um, it could be a year. Yes. Uh, you know, and so there's just this understanding that for some clients, they might move things um sooner than others. Correct. Uh, but just keeping in mind, like, hey, you know, they're going through something and obviously with appropriate boundaries, you know, my job is to support them uh kind of through this or to extend some, you know, compassion uh there. So Rose, I'm wondering, you know, you were talking with me um, you know, kind of a little bit before, like we uh hit record here uh about some of this work that you're doing. And I'm just curious, like when an advisor maybe should bring somebody like you in. Uh, if it's like, you know, okay, like client terminal illness, like I am way out of my depth. Maybe I maybe I don't understand how to help them. Maybe I recognize they need a lot of touches, like just personal like touches that I'm not able to give them that. Like when, when maybe should somebody, an advisor, like bring you in to help support a client who is in crisis.

SPEAKER_00 45:12

Yeah, thank you. All of those triggers that she just mentioned are great. So any advisor who, you know, like you can identify like death is not my zone. I don't feel comfortable talking about, I don't even like the word. And I definitely don't know how to support somebody in that. And uh after, you know, shoving the box of Kleenexes across the desk, I don't really know what to do. And I've got a couple of platitudes up my sleeve, but beyond that, I'm not sure. So the discomfort, any advisor who's really discomfort with the diagnosis that ended life, things like that, that would be a time to give me a call. Um, when a client's behavior has shifted significantly in the ways that we've been talking about, and the advisor's having a really hard time connecting with that person, and also I think you said it, that doesn't have the capacity to do that, that's another good example. Um, I sometimes think of myself kind of like the fireman that runs into the burning building, and that's not what all financial planners want to do or have time to do or training to do. So if an advisor gets to the point where they feel like this building is on fire and I really want to help, but I have no idea how, uh I'm the fireman that they can call to run into the burning building. Um so those would be a couple of examples. And the other piece is because I work my business structure is a little bit more like a coaching structure than it is traditional planning. So my engagement agreement is 16 sessions, which typically happen over about 16 weeks. So it's approximately four months. Um, they can renew that agreement as often as they want to, but it's a weekly 75-minute session. So that's a lot of, and the reason it's that long, I said earlier, like have more frequent shorter meetings. The reason why mine are longer is to give space for more of the qualitative, like they're very discovery-based conversations to allow people time to explore the cognitive and emotional and even spiritual sides of what's going on for them. And that type of time commitment is something that a lot of advisors don't have, particularly if they've got multiple clients who are going through a crisis simultaneously. So that's also something that I can offer clients who are just needing time to talk about what's going on. And an advisor doesn't have the capacity to do that, either logistically or sure, you know, emotionally themselves to hold that space.

SPEAKER_01 47:37

Like if they're like me and they're like, Yeah, like, oh, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And I I appreciate you explaining a little bit of that structure in terms of how it might look, right? Because, you know, I could just see an advisor being like, well, that sounds interesting, but like, what does that look like? So thank you for yeah, thank you for answering that question. Um, Rose, as our time winds down here, um, is there anything else when it comes to, and I'm sure there probably is, um, a lot of other things that we didn't get to touch on. Um, but is there anything as far as supporting clients through acute crisis that you feel like is important for advisors to know today, at least in in this conversation?

SPEAKER_00 48:22

So much. And I'm pausing because I'm like, there's a list in my head, and how do I fit this into a minute or two? One thing that comes to mind, uh, and it sounds like this is something that you touch on, but it would be to, to the extent that you have the capacity to invest in trauma awareness and trauma literacy, and also grief awareness and grief literacy, to understand these two things as physiological experiences that have cognitive and behavioral implications. So for advisors to invest in learning about trauma, learning about grief, understanding at least conceptually what they are, what they look like on people, and then even taking it a step further to just uh even learn the basics of how to be with somebody who is experiencing experiencing it an acute crisis as traumatic. Uh all acute crisis is going to have grief involved because it's typically a sudden ending to how things used to be. There's just grief there. So that would be one thing. The other thing I would say is really important is to become extremely aware of the language that you use. Because when a client is struggling in this way, uh, words can significantly help or hinder the experience that they're having. And because culturally we don't have a lot of room for death and grief and loss and trauma in just our normal conversations. It's something that it's, you know, it's kind of fringe. We only talk about the therapists or, you know, just the few trusted friends, but it's not dinner table conversation. None of us really learn how to talk about that. So we learn things like, um, you know, in the case of a death, saying something like, uh, I'm sorry for your loss. That's a platitude that we all go to that might not be particularly helpful. Um, or, you know, I've heard people say who've had a child death, say, well, at least you're still young, you can have more kids. Any sentence that starts with at least, and you try and like silver lining of a situation, just delete that from your lexicon, period. Yeah. Or just yeah, just stop it. If you start to catch it out of your mouth, just abort motion and pivot to something else. Just at least, whatever, whatever. Don't do that. So one book I would offer, uh, which is also a fantastic audio book, is called Um There's No Good Card for This. And I think the subtitle is what to what to say to people, really good people who experience really bad things or something along those lines. Maybe we can put that in the show notes to get the the title correct. Yes. But that's an extraordinarily helpful book and frame of reference for gaining this awareness about your language and how you show up and like things that you just need to scrape completely from what you say to people who are in struggle and other helpful ways of showing up. So those, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:27

I love that you mentioned that the link, the language piece. And I laugh because I'm, you know, I reference this person as my girl. However, I should be clear that I have never met this person and I'm really just more of a fangirl, but my girl, Brene Brown, uh, who I wish we were friends. I wish we were besties. Um, I'm just gonna put it out there. Um I also feel like I should be honest in that, like we're not we're not friends. Um, I just want to manifest that, I guess. Maybe we will be if I keep saying it. Um, but she has a fantastic video. I've utilized it for training around the difference between empathy versus sympathy. Yeah. I laugh because she uses that phrase, at least.

SPEAKER_00 52:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:15

Um, and how while the intention is, I think, to be helpful, like it is incredibly hurtful. Um, you know, on the receiving end of that. So language is very powerful. Yes, very, very powerful. Um, for those of you that are listening, uh, if you want to learn a little bit more, hear a little bit more about grief or about trauma, financial trauma, uh, you can go back and listen to episode 23 with Rakim Sabri, where we talk about trauma, financial trauma. Um, even episode 24, they're back to back with Kathy Balasek, where we talk about grief literacy. So those are also just great episodes, throwing those out there for you to reference um in addition to uh the resources that Rose mentioned as well. Well, Rose, as our time sadly comes to an end, um, if people want more Rose in their life, uh, if they're like, this sounds really interesting and they'd love to have you in their corner as a resource, uh, where can they find you?

SPEAKER_00 53:12

Yeah, thank you. My website is deathandmoney.com, just calling it exactly what it is, deathandmoney.com. And I'm also on LinkedIn Golden Thread Collaborative as well. And I love that. I have a newsletter called Threads of Insight. You liked the threads, that's the newsletter. I did, yeah. So um going to the website, signing up for the newsletter is another way to stay in touch. Uh, I'll I do it twice a month. Um, one issue is just quick little blurbs, kind of factual related to money related death and money related topics as well as meaning. Um, there's a lot of poetry there as well, because poetry is such a beautiful translator for the difficult things that we're struggling to integrate and experience. Poetry is it's kind of the spoonful of sugar that helps us get through all of the stuff that we're doing. Um, and then the other, the second newsletter I do every month is kind of a long-form essay and just a platform for me to be able to offer reflections on things that I'm thinking about, insights that I have, the work that I'm doing, um solutions that I see or would like to see exist in the world. So that's those are also good ways to do that.

SPEAKER_01 54:20

I love that. We'll make sure that we we'll make sure that we include that uh additionally in the show notes as well. Uh and for those of you listening, thank you so much for tuning in today and allowing Rose and I into your ears and into your mind. If this conversation resonated with you, I'd love to keep the connection going, as I'm sure Rose would as well. Um, we talked about where you can find her. You can find me on LinkedIn at Ashley Kwamey, where I share weekly insights on the human side of planning and conversations, topics, things such as this. Uh, if you want more Ashley Kwame in your life, um then be careful. Um but if you'd like, if you'd like a little bit more Ashley Kwame, if you'd like a little bit more of Beyond the Plan, uh, you can check us out on our website and sign up for our monthly newsletter where both Meg and I will write content and put out great information, helpful for you as the advisor, but also for your clients as well. Make sure though, most importantly, make sure to follow the show so that you never miss a future conversation like this one. And as always, my friends, I hope that you remember. I hope that you hold on to this. Finances don't have feelings, but your clients do. Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going beyond. Thanks for joining me on this episode of Planning and Beyond. I hope you found today's insights valuable and inspiring for both your practice and your personal growth. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. Your feedback helps us reach more advisors like you who are dedicated to making a difference. For more resources, tips, and to continue the conversation, visit our website at beyondthefp.com. You'll find articles, tools, and information about upcoming episodes designed to support your journey and practice. Stay connected with us on social media and never miss an update. Follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn. And remember, the best way to grow is to keep learning and sharing. Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going beyond.