SPEAKER_00 0:00

At the end of the day, we're emotional human beings, and money is a very emotionally charged topic or subject or thing, whatever you want to call it, right? Like, and then you've got emotional people and an emotional topic, and you combine those two things together. And when it explodes, it creates a lot of different dimensions and variables and things that happen outside of a spreadsheet.

SPEAKER_02 0:25

Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the show where financial planning meets human understanding. As an exceptional financial advisor, you know that financial planning is about more than just numbers. It's about giving clients the clarity they need to align their money with what matters most, which is why each episode is designed with that goal in mind. You'll learn how to uncover the psychology behind client decisions and gain insights and behavioral strategies needed to create deeper, more meaningful client relationships. You'll discover techniques for navigating emotional client situations drawn from conversations with leading industry experts in behavioral finance, psychology, communication, and more. Whether it's mastering discovery meaning, handling sensitive client conversations, or understanding what is truly keeping your client stuck, you'll walk away with not only strategies that you can use in your next client meeting, but also the confidence to do so. Oh yeah, hi. I should probably introduce myself. I'm your host, Ashley Kwamey, a therapist who somehow wandered into the world of financial behavior and kind of decided to stay. My mission is to help you bridge the gap between financial planning and human understanding. Because remember, finances don't have feelings, but your clients do. Let's dive in. Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the podcast where financial planning meets human understanding. I'm your host, Ashley Kwamey, and today is a special one, my friends. Today is episode 50. I feel like confetti and like streamers should like be coming up behind me right now, but it's not. And, you know, look, I just want to say before we dive, before we dive into the conversation that, you know, 50 episodes, uh, I wholeheartedly recognize that none of this would really be possible or really exist like without you, without you listening, uh, without the support, without the comments, the love, the questions, all of that. And so before we, you know, get into some really good conversation today and I introduce our guests, I just want to say thank you for tuning in. Thank you for the last 49 episodes. And we're looking forward to 50 times, three, four, five, I don't know, more of these. Uh, for this milestone episode, though, I wanted to do something a little bit different instead of diving into a specific tool, specific uh technique, instead of going really deep on something, I actually wanted to zoom out pretty far out. And a part of me feels a little bit silly because what we're gonna be talking about just seems so, it just seems like it's a starting place. And kind of walking through the last, you know, 49 episodes and thinking about uh just what's top of mind for me, uh, this question that I've been struggling kind of with has come up a lot more. And so I'm gonna explore this question with really the only person that I feel like is appropriate to. And he may disagree. Uh, but that question today is what is the human side of money? It's a phrase that gets used a lot in our our industry, more and more now than it did a few years ago. And I think it's really worth asking what we actually mean by this. And so maybe that question is cluing you into who is the guest for today. But without all further ado, I'm not gonna leave you on your toes. And I can tell because he's like smiling and grinning at me like right now. Welcome, Brendan Fraser. Welcome back, I should say. Thank you for being here. Thank you for entertaining me and recording this today.

SPEAKER_00 4:07

Uh absolutely excited to be here, been looking forward to it. It's a yes, zoomed out, and we're way zoomed out, but it's a question that's been on my mind for about six years, and I've never really fully narrowed it down or honed it in. So hopefully today we'll we'll solve that problem. But hang on, first, just real quick. Uh, I have to say congrats on 50 episodes because uh most people don't know how hard it is to do content in general. Most people don't know how hard it is to do 50 podcast episodes. It's really, really hard to do 50 podcast episodes. I was trying to pull up the stats real quick, but I mean it I then I was getting distracted. I didn't want to make sure I was here, but it's like the the number of people that even get to 10 episodes is like minuscule, and the number of people that get to 50 is like way more minuscule than that. It's a very, very small percentage. So major props. Congratulations. It is a it is a big deal. You're making an impact. And then secondly, uh, whenever I hear something like that, I kind of I chuckle and I laugh because I I do the I try to do the same thing, right? Like find these milestones and celebrate them. But I hate it. Like I you can ask my wife, but like maybe well, she probably has a long list of things that bother her about me, and and I'm we're good with that. But up there near the top is my it's not an inability, it's like my uh we'll just call it inability. Let's use that for right now. My inability to celebrate or to like enjoy the moment rather than being like, hey, okay, cool. That means that doesn't mean anything on to the next thing. And she likes to celebrate. Yeah. And so it's been good for me. I think this like journey of psychology and the human side is like you there's a lot of research, a lot of evidence that points to the power of pausing to celebrate and soak it in and enjoy the wins, and that psychologically it's a boost and motivating, and you know, you're more likely to keep going. So I I have never liked it. It just took the research to convince me that it actually is important. So whenever I do like you, whenever I do post something or say something, I'll do it mostly as a way because I'm like, okay, this is supposed to help me, but I'm still not good at it. I'm still not good at it. And I mostly do it just to think. Yeah, well, it's but anyway, so it's good to celebrate, it's good to sit there and hit milestones. But more most importantly, more than anything, congrats because most people won't ever know how hard it is to do what you just did, and you're just getting started.

SPEAKER_02 6:23

Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate you saying that. And for what it's worth, you and Clayton are in the same boat when it comes to the difficulty, uncomfortability of celebrating. I will celebrate anything. It doesn't, it really doesn't matter. I will celebrate anything. Uh, I've been trying to get Clayton to celebrate his 40th birthday, which are going on two years now, of like trying to get him like so. I'm not, I don't know. I don't know what it is. Maybe I need to share the research with him. Um, okay, so I let's just kind of start. I don't know where else to start other than to start, like maybe just high level, kind of at the beginning here. And um, for those of you listening, like none of this has really been rehearsed between Brendan and I. I brought him this topic, this question of like, hey, I want to talk about this. Let's just do it in you know, true, like Brendan, like friend fashion, unlike our other friend, Meg Lurts. He's like, Yeah, that's exciting. Yes, I will uh definitely, that sounds cool. He gets pumped about it. Uh, but we haven't really talked much beyond like the structure of this today. So we're gonna kind of just go with it and I'm cool with that. But I think I don't know, Brendan, unless you have a different place to start. Like, can we maybe think about just like from a foundation standpoint, like understanding at like its core? Like, what do we think the human side is, at least for you? Like, I want to hear your thoughts kind of on this first.

SPEAKER_00 7:49

Yeah, so first and foremost, yes, this is not structured. We're riffing, which for Brendan is completely not the norm. No, Brendan's like, all right, give me like 30 minutes to an hour to prepare so I can get in the right mindset and going into it. So I don't even know what I'm gonna say. It may not even make sense to someone. It's so exciting out there, yeah. Um okay, so I think the foundation of this has to go back to maybe not one place, but there's one place we have to, I think, anchor it in. And that is that at the end of the day, we're emotional human beings, and money is a very emotionally charged topic or subject or thing, whatever you want to call it, right? Like, and then you've got emotional people and an emotional topic, and you combine those two things together, and when it explodes, it creates a lot of different dimensions and variables and things that happen outside of a spreadsheet, right? Like, we we all know the spreadsheet side, we all know the quantitative side, the technical side, and how important it is. It's just not sufficient if you want to capture the totality of how to be financially successful and all the dimensions that go into money in your life. So I think you have to start with just going, hey, emotional human beings with an emotional topic, and you bring those two things together, and that's gonna be a recipe for the human side, right? Don't say disaster, don't say disaster. No, it's not disaster, right? No, I don't believe that. I don't think it's disaster. So, okay, so then we go, all right, if that's the if that's true and that's the case, then you start thinking, okay, like if we if we go back to like the the journey, the path that we've seen in the industry as far as raising awareness around this, right? Meyer Statman came on, he was talking about behavior the three different levels of behavioral finance 1.0, 2.0, 3.0. And we can get into the nitty-gritty of that. I mean, if you want to, you can go look into it. Um, I think it's a good sort of baseline for understanding the journey of how this has evolved over time. But I think by and large, most people, when they their their gateway into the realization that there's more to money and finances than just dollar signs and decimal points and calculations and spreadsheets. It's usually what what's known as behavioral finance. Not always, don't you know? Not always, but like behavioral finance sort of seems to be the the gateway, the entry point, the buzzword that we that gets people in, right? And it's not surprisingly, because you've got people out there that have won uh Nobel P not not Nobel Peace Prizes, but Nobel Prizes for their work on the topic of behavioral finance. You've got studies that were done that get people to increase their 401k contributions, not by teaching them more, right? But by just by simply making them auto-enroll and then escalating the amount, and it's all this behavioral stuff. So I think that's where you get into it, and it opens your eyes to oh, wait, we're not completely rational and logical. There is another element to this. Um, for me, the the eye-opening moment was reading the book called The Undoing Project by Michael Lewis, where he went and he basically told a story about Daniel Kahneman and Amos Tversky, and he told it through their eyes, their friendship, but he was highlighting all of these biases that we have, how our how we're not near as smart as we think we are, how our decisions and our thoughts are always influenced by things we aren't aware of. It was essentially like, hey, this is behavioral finance 101, told through the lens of a friendship between two people that did the research. And Michael Lewis is a great author, so it was fascinating. But I remember just sitting there thinking in that moment, like, man, I am not as smart as I think I am. People aren't as smart as they think they are. I think I'm really logical, but I'm making these like emotional decisions. And so it took, it took the mirror being held up to me to look at myself first and go, oh man. And then that sort of just ignited my interest in it as a whole. And you need to what you start as you once that gateway is open, or once you start going down that path, what you realize just like anything, right? The more you learn, the more you learn you don't know. And so you start going down this path, and you're like, oh, this is way bigger than just behavioral finance. This is way bigger than just biases that I fall prey to or that my clients fall prey to. You start realizing there's stories around money that you learn in childhood. You start learning that you have beliefs about money that you didn't even know existed. You have money scripts, you have stories, you start realizing that it all of your decisions that you're making are what you think are rational or probably emotional. You start realizing that money's purpose isn't just to like mat your it's not just to maximize your wealth. You start realizing that there's a whole behavior change component. And so what eventually for this is I'll wrap it up by saying this. What happened for me was I sat there and I went, I'm fascinated by this realm that for whatever reason we don't really talk much about at this point in time in the industry. This was 2017-ish. Um, but calling it behavioral finance doesn't seem adequate, like it's just a slice of the pie, it's just this one segment of the whole. And so then it was just this like constant thinking process of like, I don't know, I mean, what would we call it? And so I don't even think this is the best name for it, but it's the best that I think is out there that I could come up with because it's an umbrella that encapsulates all of it, which is the human side of money. I think my point there is saying there's a lot of dimensions to the human side, and I don't know of a better umbrella term or way to encapsulate it than to say, hey, this is when you when you deal with money, these are the human components that are at play.

SPEAKER_02 13:27

One I'm gonna have to go back and check out that book because that's that's a new one for me.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

Be prepared to be humbled. Actually, at this point, you probably know a lot of it too. This is remember, this is like my eye-opening. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Aside, you know, aside from working with advisors and advisors telling me all the time, like, oh, I feel like more of a therapist than an advisor. I need a degree in psychology. Now, you know, I had heard those things. And so this book was almost like the submitted. This is why.

SPEAKER_02 13:54

Yeah, like this is why. Like this starts to make sense. Yeah. The phrase that you were using there about the dimensions, right? There's a lot of different dimensions. And I guess for myself coming from, you know, a mental health background, but more specifically, it's not just mental health, like the way in which, uh, from a schooling standpoint and theory, and I won't get into a lot of this, but I think it's important because it does inform the way that I think about this question of what is the human side of money, uh, being trained in from a systemic therapy lens, from a systemic lens. And what I mean by that is it is a lot of dimensions, um, layers uh around what what really makes someone human? Like that's kind of the question, maybe that I was starting is like, well, what is the essence of being human? What are all of those layers or parts is, you know, kind of what we might refer to it more on the therapy side. And so thinking about how all of those parts like come together, money being one of them, but it's also layered like on top of it. And and like, I guess kind of diving in a little bit, what I mean by that is when I think about parts, there's like an individual layer here. Um, you know, personality traits, your temperament, um, you know, if there are any type of like from a you know, neurodivergence or cognitive uh related difficulties, um, you know, even things like attachment or personal trauma that you might experience. There's individual pieces here from in this layer. And then there's also like the relational aspect, like your family of origin, like your partner, um, you know, if there's any communication patterns, sibling dynamics, how does all of that impact the way that you navigate money, cultural layers too, like your ethnicity, um, you know, cultural values, uh, spiritual beliefs, right? You know, and then we get into even beyond that, and just like your socioeconomic uh like layer and societal layer, like all of these things really come together, I think, to uh make us who we are, like as a human. And then you layer on top of that money. And it's like you talk about kind of you say like really complex dimensions there. And it's no wonder we're not rational, like we're really emotional there.

SPEAKER_00 16:16

Yeah, okay. So it's I'm really glad you said that. It's funny you say that because despite not having a whole lot to go off of or to prepare for, I did know the general theme, right? Of like, hey, let's talk about this idea, this the human side of money, what it means. Uh, and so when I I did do spend a little bit of time thinking about it beforehand, right? Because I don't know how else to operate. And one of the things I wrote down as I like, hang on, if we just boil this down for a second and and not try to overcomplicate it, it really is like we it comes from the fact that we're very first and foremost, these are human beings, not issues and problems. These are these these are things, these are layers or dynamics or things that come from being human. And then the human side of money is just how it impacts and plays out in one aspect of your life, which is related to your money, right? So you could take, like you said, your spiritual beliefs, your cultural values, you could take any of these human elements that are just a part of being human, and you could apply it to other areas of life as well, right? We're it's just the lane that we operate in, the world that we live in, the clients that we work with, it all revolves around money. So the idea is not, and this is funny, it's it's interesting that the way I described it very early on in the podcast was the answers or the research or what we need to know about the human side, it already exists out there. Like it exists, it's just not in the field of financial advice, money, and financial services, right? A lot of what we want to know or need to know to do this well, we're not reinventing the wheel. We just have to go pull it in and make it applicable to money and working with clients and their money day in and day out, right? So, like, for example, uh communicate high-level communication skills that show empathy and build trust and help guide clients through a decision-making process. Those are all human skills and the how-to guides or the research on how to do it, it's out there, right? And now, is it always evolving? Yeah, sure, probably, right? But like by and large, if you want to know how to do that, it exists, it just doesn't exist in the field of financial services. You've got to go look elsewhere to find that. And so the the idea was how do we sense how do we bring that back and apply it to money, right? That is one example, you know, or even the idea of oh, um, here's what happened in my, here's my here's what happened in my childhood. Like this is something that happened that when I was young that impacted who I am today. Like that's not a new concept to people that have been in in what's like therapy, for example, right? Like we're just figuring out that's part of being human. How does it impact and apply to your money and your finances? So I'm basically just adding on to what you already said, probably with a little bit too much. But like the whole idea is what you said, which is it starts with being human, and then when you put money on top of it, it either exposes or amplifies or adds a dimension that if we're gonna work with people on their money, we need to be better equipped to help them deal with or at least know what's going on.

SPEAKER_02 19:26

Yeah, yeah. No, I would agree with you. So, okay, if maybe we're putting a little bit of a little bit of definition. I'll say a little bit because I think you know, you and I probably there could be a lot more here. Like what have so you said since 2017? So you've been in the game a little bit longer, a little bit longer uh than I have. So why do you think it's important for advisors to I don't want to say answer that question for like each client, but just have like this understanding around like what does the human side of money mean for this client or for that client? Like, what have you seen since 2017 as far as why it's um why is that important for advisors?

SPEAKER_00 20:15

Yeah, so I think by the way, when I say when you say that, when I said 2017 and when you repeated it back to me, it was sort of like a well, that's bizarre kind of moment. No, I mean that was like you're coming up on 10 years. I hadn't really done anything with it until about 2019, 2020. But anyways, um this is gonna sound how do I say this nicely? Um I I I think the answer to the question is like I could list off a bunch of reasons why it's important for advisors to understand the human side and be aware of it and know how to apply it, know how it impacts their clients. I think anybody that's listening that's been in this business for more than I'll call it a month, already knows all the benefits. Like I think they you're probably right, yeah, I guess but okay, but like let's just but let's not assume, let's break it down. I mean, number one, we can think to it from a number of different through a number of different lenses, but we know that it leads to better client experiences. We know that it leads to more, if you want to go from a business perspective, it leads to uh more client referrals. Like so better client experience, better outcome for your clients, they have a better relationship with you. We know that one of the main predictors of financial success is the quality of the relationship that they have with their advisor, right? And so it's like the better you can be at the relationship side, the more likely you are to for your clients to be financially successful, right? Um it helps clients live better lives. You you retain more clients because you're building better relationships, and then you're better able to help them navigate through what are some of the most challenging, difficult times in their life, right? So, for example, if somebody's sitting there and they're like, hey, I just I can't save more, I don't know what's happening. out like we're up to our eyeballs in debt. We know we need to save more. We shouldn't spend as much. Like at the very core, if you can get good, if you can understand what's going on, help the client understand what's going on and help them get out of that. That's that's life-changing work that you can't otherwise do just by looking at a spreadsheet. You can try as many times you can try as hard as you want to put a spreadsheet in front of somebody who spends too much and has a whole a ton of debt and say, hey, look, if you keep doing this, here's how much debt you're going to have and here's how it's going to impact. But we know that doesn't work, right? There's something else at play there. There's something going on psychologically, emotionally, like it there could be a number of factors at play. But you're going to help people you're going to that's you're going to be able to have an impact on their life so that they get better outcomes. Um I'm trying to think what other business benefits there are. I mean your business is going to grow faster because you've got emotional connections with your clients and they I guess I already said referrals right so it's like nothing groundbreaking. Right. It's like all the things it's better let's here's how I sometimes like to boil it down. So when I do these presentations I'm like all right here are all the benefits and it's fun to go here they all are but if let's just like pause for a second and just make it simple and go when you get good at this your clients are better off they're happier they get better outcomes and your business is better off. You retain more clients you get more you you grow faster. So it's like there are very and I I mean there are very few things you can do where your both your clients and your practice are just vastly better off. Right now there are things but it's not a long list. And so if I'm sitting there going all right what are the things that I know I need to work on or want to work on I've only got a little bit of time to do it you better believe I'm going to focus on the thing that has the biggest impact to both of those things and not just the one that oh this benefits my business but not necessarily my clients not saying you shouldn't do that. You can't but time and place yeah yeah but if you could do if you could do one thing that impacts both that's probably a higher better use of your time. So I mean I think by and large there's nothing I think that we could say I'm trying to I'm actually sitting over trying to think about is there any type of benefit that we could say where somebody would go oh wow.

SPEAKER_02 24:07

I think you're just better like you evolve like I I just I think you named all the things at least that I hear and like have said like heard and I think you're just better. And like if you don't want to be better then don't don't like don't try to focus on this. But if you do want to be better as a professional as just a human like yourself like I think this this part of financial planning is really important. And I don't know if I've met yet I'm not going to knock on wood um because someone's going to loan me old someone's going to aim on be like you know what you're wrong because this did happen. What am I about to say? I have not yet met an advisor where they have said you know what in understanding my clients better from a human side of things it's made all of these other things just better flow easier the relationship's better and I feel better. I've yet to meet an advisor who has said you know what that actually didn't happen. I did not feel better. And my client got worse.

SPEAKER_00 25:07

And I know you're like you're joking saying somebody will email actually if that's if somebody's listening and they that is the case I I will I would like for them to email because I want to know if it's happened right yeah probably the wrong podcast to find that out thank you thank you for putting that on mine and not yours not yours yeah yeah yeah um but yeah I would go as far as to say I haven't I don't I haven't even met somebody that would say I don't think this is important, relevant and would actually help me or my clients. I think everybody know again if you've been in the business for probably less than a month let's just say baseline a month if you've sat down with another human being and talked about their money you've at least had your eyes open to the fact that there is this human side that exists. Yes. And I've never met anybody that's like yeah I don't think that that would be helpful or beneficial. I think it's overrated or a waste of time. The challenge is not saying oh I know I need it. The challenge is how do I do it? What do I do how do we get over you get overwhelmed because you're like and I mean again this is I've said this for so long now it's like I think people know this they hear it but maybe not but it's like uh I'm supposed I have to get trained and and work on and develop my skills to be able to talk financial planning with a client. Right. But there's no really guidance or direction or requirement to figure out how to connect with somebody that I've never met to talk about an emotional topic. There's no requirement that helps that where I go, oh, this is how you better understand how their past their history of money is in influencing their present decision making. There's no training that says hey one of the hardest things you're going to have to do when you work with clients is get them to change their behavior to actually follow through and implement the advice you give because by the way if you give somebody a plan and they don't implement it it's worthless. Just that's my take I just you know I know that's a little bit extreme but at the end of the day it's like what's the point? So if we're going to work with human beings we have to know how to change behavior the things that do that and there's not well there there's more now right but there's no like you must do this and it's required training to get better at this in order to work in this business. I think that's why most people say I know it's important I just I don't really know what to do.

SPEAKER_02 27:24

No I think you're you're hitting at kind of where I wanted us to go next which is I I hear a lot of the same things like I agree with you. I find this fascinating I think that it it is important. And what do I do with all of that information? If I ask and find out like about a client's money history or if we talk about you know some of these these other layers that I mentioned earlier like the impact of religion, culture, um, you know, relationships all of these things like okay I have this information but like what do I do with it other than just like put it in the notes of my CRM and like let it just stay there and live forever. And I think that that is a really valid question. And I think that that's I think that's also a really hard question too to answer is the what what do I do with it? Because there's not um there's not one right way of doing it for like every single client. It's one of it's a classic like it depends. And I know that this is you know some of the work that you do have done previously is this like practical application piece like how do we take some of this and how do we train advisors um I know that you've done that you know before joining RFG and I know that you do that now within RFG. Certainly that's what Meg and I um the work that we do is making making a lot of this very very practical but it's a hard question. And so let's maybe if we can let's dive into a little bit of that like that application like piece. Like you know okay it's one thing to understand it but now how do we do it? How do we do it in practice? What are your thoughts on I don't want to say best place to start maybe it's easiest place to start or maybe it's just a place to start.

SPEAKER_00 29:16

Well if the if your question isn't what's the best place to start that is a very common question that comes that I get a lot which is okay how do I start attacking this what is the best place so even if it's not whatever the question is it's some version of what do I do? How do I attack it? What's the best place to start? Okay so this is where I think there's a and I figured we would get here I think there's an important line or distinction that gets drawn at this point.

SPEAKER_02 29:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 29:41

And I'll give you my terminology for it there's probably other terminology for it but I think this is where you start looking at it where you start distinguishing between the human side of money and then the human side of advice because I think the human side of money is sort of like more so from the lens of or through the like how it applies to and how it impacts clients. Yeah. For lack of a better it's not how do I work with clients it's what are the things that go on with money in my finances that influence my decision making that are at play when you're looking at when a person is dealing with their money. And I think those are two different things. One is knowing that there are beliefs and behaviors they're sorry that there are beliefs that drive behaviors around money. It's knowing that biases do exist right it's knowing that um I'm trying to think of another example it's knowing that part of their their identity is in oh I'm a saver and therefore I'm not going to spend my five million dollars that I have despite the fact that I would never ever ever outlive it. Right. It's important to know that that's the I think that's the human side of money is how it plays out with clients, how it impacts clients. I think of the other aspect of what to do about it is the human side of advice where we go okay now I get that that's important Brendan but you and Ashley just told me that there are all these dimensions and aspects of money and I sat and listened to Ashley rattle off almost all of them a few minutes ago and it I come back to the same place where I go okay what do I do about it? Right? How do I bring this to life? How do I and so that was like that's the that's been the mission all along right for both of us right is is saying hey how do we make it so that advisors can do this day in and day out in a way that impacts clients whether it's teaching and training them whether it's having a fractional chief behavioral officer that they can bring in to interact with clients like how do we bridge this gap between I know that I need to do more I know how important it is and I want to actually do it. There's all there's this gap that needs to be bridged so if we go there there's a lot of different ways we could take this I've actually wrestled this question quite a bit what's funny is training or like trying to answer this question or teach and train advisors on it is at the end of the day also a human problem. It's like a behavioral challenge where it's like I could tell you what to do but that doesn't mean that you're gonna go do it. Right. So I have a few different ways that I look at this or that I would approach it. One I hesitate to give this one first because it sounds like a really lazy answer like a cop out of like oh obviously Brendan wasn't prepared because anybody could say that but the more I've thought about it seen it play out and tested it it keeps surfacing as actually an actual effect of way because okay ideal answer to this question ideal podcasting would be here's the four step roadmap to master the human side of advice Ashley let me dude that's like so good SEO right there. Yeah right yeah yeah it would probably be better for keeping people listening it would probably be better for like getting downloads but it's not going to change behavior the way that we want it to change behavior. And so I wrestle with this all the time right it's like do I do what's best or do I do anyways so and I always do what's best even though it sometimes you're like well I hope it pays off dividends later. So one of the best things you can do if you want to figure out how to get better at this is it kind of comes from the concept of just in time learning where you're like hey if I'm gonna learn something I might as well do something that's impacting me right now and today and focus on that. So you can you can have immediate application but it combines with combines that with following something that you're excited about or passionate about. Because if there's one recipe to learn and do and actually change behavior and have sustained behavior change, it's I need to be excited and motivated about doing it and I need to be able to do it repeatedly so that I can get feedback and iterate and make it more of a habitual thing. And so what I would say is if you're sitting there going I don't know where to start I would say first of all pick the scenario that you see happening the most so it for some people it's going to be oh I meet with prospects a lot. Like the number one highest the best use of my time where I spend my most time where I have the biggest impact is in uh the first meeting with a prospect because you know we want to grow we want to get them to the next meeting so they can eventually become clients and so on. And so if that's where you're spending a lot of time feeling some friction as far as like I know I need to get better at it but I don't know exactly what to do that's your sort of your guiding light to say all right if that's it if that's where you're spending time and that's where you're you have the most reps you have the most ability to apply let's start there and figure out how do you get better at the human side in these meetings with a prospect right okay that's one example for me the example the way that the way that I started down this path was I read this I read the book Advice That Sticks by Mora Summers. Well I saw the I heard her on the Kitsus podcast got the book devoured the book sat there and thought to myself I can't believe this isn't like a financial advisor bestselling book right so I I if I say all the time if there's ever a book that should be required reading after the CFP to buy sticks I probably said on the podcast last time. Anyways so I follow so there's one element where you go I'm in prospect meetings a lot I need to get better at that for me it was I was fascinated by this idea if you haven't for those that haven't read the book the idea or the premise is basically it's really really hard to get people to change their behavior and implement the action items and the things that we tell them to do. It's not just in money by the way a lot of her research is from the medical field right we the doctors see this all the time with prescriptions. It's like when you give somebody a prescription 50% don't even go fill it and then only 25% stick with it. And so I became fascinated with this idea of like hey we're giving people advice and they're not actually doing it. And so for me it was all right well I'm gonna do I'm gonna go down this path lean into what I'm excited about and passionate about and learn from Moira but also or Dr. Summers but also like outside behavioral science research on like how can we better work with clients to get them to implement the advice. So it was I wasn't starting with like a okay blank slate what do I do it's like no I found something that interested me followed that pursued that and then figured out how to apply it with clients and so that was it but the other but again that's one element of it. The other element is well if you need to get better at prospect meetings figure out go find what you can do to get better at prospect meetings and then spend your time on that focused area and then you're gonna be able to do it you apply it you hone it you iterate and you're gonna get better at it what you'll probably find too by the way is that if that's where you need to be focusing to get better is you're gonna develop a genuine interest or passion in learning about it, right? Like okay how do I get this person that I've never met to first of all open up and feel comfortable with me but then second of all give me all this valuable information that I need to know that they don't tell anybody else in their life. And that becomes like a fun, exciting journey to go hey how do you act because again the answers are out there right the on how the answers on how to do that are there. You should have to find them now fortunately like there's people in this space now like yourself and others who are making it more accessible for advisors to know these things and bringing it to to financial services but last thing I'll say on that is if anybody's sitting there going okay yeah that's where I spend a lot of my time is in these prospect meetings and I don't get excited about figuring out how to get them to open up and get them to the next meeting you're probably not in the right meeting. You probably need to go spend your time somewhere else. So that's just another point. But those are two things I would say that are not great they're not the four step approach but I think you're gonna get better results from it. And I've got a more regimented or typical thought process or idea as well that I can share. But I'll just pause there for now and see if you like see if you want to explore that, dive into that or you tell me.

SPEAKER_02 37:52

Before we continue, I'm gonna pause for just a second to tell you about something I'm so excited about. And yes, I know that this is a classic podcast move, right? But just stay with me here because if what we've been talking about today resonates with you, this is going to feel really relevant. If you're a firm owner, if you're an advisor who knows that there's more to financial planning than the numbers, but maybe you're not quite sure how to systematically bring the human side into your practice, I want to tell you about our foundation's offering. This is a three-tiered offering that Meg Lurtz and I created to help advisory firms integrate financial psychology into every area of support from client support, advisor support, even including firm support. We have done for you quarterly trainings, bi-monthly case consultations, on-call one-on-one client coaching sessions, white label newsletters, client-facing tools, even strategic support that builds your team's confidence over time. If you're ready to transform how you show up for your clients, visit beyondthefp.com to reach out to us and start the conversation. All right, let's get back to the show. I like that you started kind of with the like what's coming up for you right now? Like what are you dealing with most? And and I like that because I think it's easy. It's like low-hanging fruit you know like it because if you're dealing with it a lot if this is where you're spending a lot of your time it it's it's gonna be easier and more natural to explore that versus something that maybe a place where you're not spending a lot of time or you know it's harder to like get to it's there's less friction uh there. And when we're trying to make a change or when we're trying to learn something new, we don't we want there to be as little friction as possible. And so starting where you are, you know, that's that is kind of the expression that I would use with clients is like let's start where you are not where you want to be not where you have been but let's just start where you are I think that that is like chef's case like perfect place perfect place to start here's the other thing about that by the way that maybe some people picked up on it maybe but if not is the other that's the number one benefit.

SPEAKER_00 40:09

The second benefit is if is if that's something that you're doing, if that's where you are, then you're going to get a return on the time that you spend working on it. Right. In other words like if you're like the worst thing you could do is go work on something I shouldn't say the worst thing but ultimately it's like hey we all only have so much time right so you might as well use it in the highest and best use possible. And so if you're looking how do I what can I do that has the biggest impact on my clients and my business you might as well spend time working on something that you do on a regular basis. Right. That way you know it's gonna have an impact. You're not waiting for the and I'll just use this example. Let's say you're like hey I'm really fascinated by this concept of money stories and money scripts and money memories and how it impacts decision making well decision making well if you don't if you just if you dive into that and then you don't have a conversation around it once but once every you know three months it's like is it still helpful? Yes. Is it as impactful as spending time learning how to get more prospects from clients no does that mean you should only do the thing that you spend the most time no I mean it just know that that's a decision to be made if you're more passionate about this idea of money memories and how to do it I'm not saying don't go down that path just know that the return may not be the return on your time may not be as valuable.

SPEAKER_02 41:30

Yeah no it's a good point. That's a good point. I want to go back to something that you said that because I I felt like a strong like ooh uh internal feeling. I don't think my face like said this when you said it but I think like internally I felt like we need to talk about this. And that was around like this kind of two part question of like defining like the human like what is the human side and then what is like the human side of advice uh and here's some thoughts that I've had that I I I don't know how clear and concise they are um but I I'm gonna be vulnerable and like if I was to judge you for clear and concise it would be the definition of the pot call in the kettle black.

SPEAKER_00 42:14

So yeah cool.

SPEAKER_02 42:14

Please awesome great all right I'm glad I'm in good company but I want to hear I want to hear your thoughts. So one of the I don't want to label it as an emotion but there's a like curiosity is what I will say is that I've had more recently and it's led to kind of some work is that when it comes to like the human side of advice I don't think the categories in which financial planning is currently set up how it's defined is really that. And what I mean by that is like taxes, retirement, estate planning, cash flow like the these are like categories that we do financial planning, right? That we like look at here insurance, right? The other one Clayton would be appalled if I didn't like name all of them or know all of them. Like where have you been the last 20 years? But like these are these are these areas in these domains but these aren't human domains. And I you know I know clients normally come in with like some type of problem but I think if we're gonna elevate or really change and focus on like what is really the human side of advice and planning, like it's not these domains. Like I feel like these domains are what are like the vehicles for getting the thing that we want right and what I think the human side of advice really centers on is you know five domains that like Meg and I talk about things like security and freedom, connection and relationship, legacy uh and impact, health and vitality like those are the human domains and I think those are the domains that that's what people want, right? Like that's kind of the human side of the advice. And I think tax, estate, insurance, cash flow I don't know why I'm saying it like that, but like those are all just like vehicles to Get those things that we want, to you know, ensure that we have time autonomy, that we have financial freedom uh and like security there. So I really liked that you kind of distinguished like there's the human side of like the person, but then there's also like this human side of advice uh as well. And I think that I think it's important to acknowledge both. So I'm look, that was my really like non-concise riff here. Let me know. What are you thinking?

SPEAKER_00 44:30

Um okay, no, so here's what I was thinking as you were saying that is if we if you look at it and say, okay, on one hand, on one side of this picture that we're painting, you have the financial planning topics, right? The money moves, the financial planning strategies of cash flow and retirement planning, investment management, insurance, estate planning, all those things, right? Those are key components, foundations of uh good money management. Right. Or to optimize your money and your finances. And then on the other side of this visual that we're painting, on the other over here on this that depends on where what screen you're looking at, if it's the left or the right, either way, other side, you go. Well, there's also these other dimensions that like you said security, connection, security and freedom, connection and relationship, health and vitality, legacy and impact, growth and discovery.

SPEAKER_02 45:25

Yeah, growth and discovery.

SPEAKER_00 45:26

Here's what I was thinking as you were saying that is that visual represents something that I've tried to compartmentalize or to say for a long time, which is money is nothing more than a tool to fund the life that you want to live. And so every money decision that's made, every money strategy that's deployed should be in service of funding the life that you want to live. So it should what we should look at and goes, okay, if it's important for to me to have security and freedom, then I'm now making these decisions on cash flow, investment management, retirement planning, uh insurance, estate planning. And I think we are missing one. But but I could we could look it up, but everybody gets to the point. Yeah, those decisions are in service of being able to fund this thing that's important to you called security or freedom. Like for, I mean, think what you want about insurance. But if I highly, highly value security and the ability to sleep well at night knowing everything's gonna be okay, I might need insurance, and that becomes a vehicle through which I get to uh live a life where I feel more secure, I feel more secure, and then I'm able to be more present with my kids, whatever it might be. Right now, the ch the problem is, or not the problem, that's not a good way to put it. The challenge in that is advisors are really, really good at the financial planning topic side, and we're not as good, and it's no indictment of any of anything, maybe just the industry, focusing too much on like stock picking for so long. Like, what were we doing?

SPEAKER_02 46:56

Anyway, that's investments, investments, investments. That was the last one. Sorry, investments. Yeah, that made me think about it.

SPEAKER_00 47:03

And so if you if you look at it just simplistically, and you go, hey, if money's a tool to fund the life that we want to live, in order to know how to make these money decisions, I need to know on this other, I need to know this other side of this other side of the sheet first, right? Like, I need to know what it is that's important to you, how what it looks like to live a like a thriving life in these human domains. And and like we can go a little bit even more granular, and like you said, security and freedom, to which I would say if somebody finds out that from a client that security and freedom is of utmost importance to them, I would say, and I kind of think it was two different things, anyways. I would say that that would that's really, really good. Most people probably don't even get there, but what what we have to eventually, I think one day get to is you got to go a lot deeper than that, right? Like, what what is freedom? What does that mean? What does it look like? How will you know when you're free? And then now we go and we look and we go, okay, we're not optimizing these financial planning domains for to maximize your net worth. That's not what we're doing, right? We could, or at least it gives you it gives you a way to to talk through the trade-off, right? Like, hey, right, you said that you like can't sleep at night when you have debt, like it just literally feels painful to you. Now, we could keep paying off your mortgage every month, right? And and I think that's probably the best way to deploy your capital. But you've said this is important, you do not have debt. You have the ability to go ahead and pay it off now. May not be the best financial decision, but you this is what you've said is important to you to live this life that you want to live. And so it gives us just a much better lens through which to make the financial decisions and a better way to discuss the trade-offs with clients instead of just saying, Hey, I don't think you should do that, or hey, you should do this, you should do that. Boy, I'm gonna boil it down and say this if money's a tool to fund the life that you want to live, before you can know what levers to pull in their financially, you have to know what that life looks like, right? Yeah, and what they want it to look like. And that may change over time, but you can't aim for something if you have no picture of what it looks like. And that's where I think a big opportunity lies. I know a big opportunity lies for our advisor community, for advisors everywhere, quite frankly, is getting way, way, way better at defining that side of the picture where you have these human domains, and then eventually ultimately having a not just winging it and trying to ask, but like having a way or a process or a method that you use to uncover and unpack all that for a client.

SPEAKER_02 49:44

Yeah, no, I like that you I like everything that you said there and the vision part, I think is it's really key, right? How do we know where we're going if we don't have a picture for it, right?

SPEAKER_01 49:58

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 49:59

What do you say? What is your thing that you say about the plane and the destination that I always like? That people don't buy the ticket, they buy the destination, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:10

Yeah. Nobody buys a plane ticket, they buy the destination.

SPEAKER_02 50:13

They buy the destination, right? Yeah. So how can we start to create a picture of what that destination is, right? What does, you know, if a client's like, hey, like I want to be work optional by the time I'm in my 50s? Okay, well, what does that, what does that really like? You know, let's paint a little bit more, let's color that in a little bit, right? What does maybe work optional mean? Right. If I want to spend more time with my aging parents, okay, well, what does that mean? Does that mean more trips out to see them across country? Like, where are you now? Like versus where do you want to be? Like, can can we start to, you know, fill in right the the picture here with a bit more color and using all of these levers, as you said, uh, you know, to get to that destination there. So I love, I love all of that. Okay, Brendan.

SPEAKER_00 51:02

Well, hang on, I gotta say something to that because I think it's so important. Oh, uh yes, and this is like this is where you start seeing the compounding effects of the human side of Vice or implementing it start happening because uh we're uh I'm having lots of flashbacks to the glory days, the beginning days. Uh, this is these are still the glory days, don't get me wrong. But I remember uh this was probably like 2020-ish. Um Sarah Newcomb wrote it was with Morningstar and they put out this research that showed that basic, I'm gonna make I'm not gonna get it perfectly right, but I'm gonna give you the gist and the concept of it. But they looked at it and said, hey, if we can get somebody to better describe or more vividly describe the future state that they want to get to, does that impact their decision making and their behavior and the present? Not shockingly to anybody that's a student of psychology behavior change, this has been done outside the field of financial services for a long time. We know that there is maybe not like it's not 100% effective, but we know that this is an effective strategy, right? Well, they bring it into financial services. They go, hey, if we get people to more vividly describe the retirement that they want to bridge the gap between their current and their future self, not by saying I want to retire at 65, but by coloring it in with detail what they're gonna be doing, then will that actually influence and change their behavior? Well, they like does it improve saving rates or improve the desired uh activity, the desired action that they need to do to get there? And it did, right? And it did. And so I remember sitting there thinking, like, wait a minute, like that's one thing that we could easily do in conversation with the client that will help them, that will help us. It's like you you help them paint this picture of what where they want to go, and it also solves the biggest challenge I think that we face as advisors, which is I mentioned it a few times, but on the human side, which is the behavior change component. Yes, exactly. Color in the vision more and then get the guess what? If you told me that you're like, hey, Brendan, you really need to cut back an extra $500 a month and not go to those do those fun things that you like to do and not go to dinners out to eat on weeknights because you need to retire at 65. I'd be like, Yeah, no, no, sorry. Uh yeah, I do not want to do that. I'll deal with that. I'm dealing with that. Or I would know in my head, I would go, yeah, I okay, yes, I definitely need to. And then guess what? Wednesday and I would roll around, I'd be leaving work, I wouldn't feel like making dinner. I would be like, all right, I'm going out to eat. There's no way. It's like I have the best intentions, but in the moment I'm not doing what I know that I need to do. But but if I'm sitting there going, all right, if I my picture of retiring at 65 is, and this is the example I use a lot, so I'm just gonna roll it. I'm gonna go with it. My vision of retiring is I get to go on a family vacation with my kids and my grandkids, and we're gonna be at Disney World, we're gonna be staying at the Swan and Dolphin Hotel, we're gonna go to these parks, right? Then I'm gonna sit there on a Wednesday and go, I'm trading this meal today, not for retirement at 65. I'm trading it. Uh I'm basically taking away from the opportunity to be able to take this vacation, and that becomes a great igniter of behavior change.

SPEAKER_02 54:10

We feel pain, right? Like there's a pain associated like with that, right? And we don't want to feel that pain, uh, you know, in those moments. That's a great example. I think I think it's spot on. Uh, the only thing that I would say that you probably should change is that instead of a swan and dolphin, you may want to consider Animal Kingdom. But that's just, you know, that's just my that's just my opinion. I mean, totally fair.

SPEAKER_00 54:30

I'm 100% open to that.

SPEAKER_02 54:32

I mean, Swann and Dolphin's great, like, don't get me wrong. Like, easy, it's easily accessible to like MCOP, but like, come on, man, if you're taking the grandkids, dude, like you can you can go to Animal.

SPEAKER_00 54:41

I often wonder when I give that example how many Disney enthusiasts are out there that are like, oh no, don't do that.

SPEAKER_02 54:47

I immediately judged uh your 65-year-old self when you said swan and dolphin. I was like, no, we can do better for your grandkids. We can do better. Awesome. Okay, well, Brendan, look, this was such a great conversation. Thank you for spending the 50th episode here with me today exploring this, zooming out. Uh, we talked about a lot of things, right? We talked about what really is the human side, um, all of the layers, the complex dimensions. Uh, we talked about the human side of advice. So glad that you differentiated that as different from like the human like side there, where advisors can start. What are some great places, how they can think about it, maybe reframe some of their thinking uh there. Lots of great stuff here. If there was a last like parting thought advice that you would like to give our listeners uh around this, what would that be?

SPEAKER_00 55:45

Yeah, I was actually just thinking this. Like, all right, hang on, hang on, we're wrapping up. Is there anything that's like, hey, let's just boil it down, make it simple or that hasn't been said? And when you asked about how to apply the practical application, how do we think through it, where do we start? I still go back to those two lenses of where am I where do I need it the most based on the time that I'm spending, so that it's less friction, just in time learning, more impact, and then also just follow your passion because passion will take you a long way. It helps you persist when you don't feel like it. But if you're but if anybody's sitting there and they're like, Okay, like that didn't really help. If I was to say, all right, if there's one area where you would spend your time and get the highest like payback on that time, your highest ROI in terms of it actually making a difference day in and day out, it I would say you've got to focus on your developing communication, elite communication skills. Yeah, because you may not have prospect meetings every day, you may not have money memory meetings every day, you may not have meetings where you're talking about what security and freedom means to someone every day. In fact, you're not gonna have any of these. Well, maybe prospect meetings for some people, but but you you may not be doing all of this. It's hard. You can look at it and go, all right, well, I'll do that and I'll do it sometimes. You know what you are gonna be doing every day? Communicating with other human beings, and you'll probably be you'll be communicating with clients a lot most days, probably, but you're also gonna be communicating with other human beings that aren't clients, right? Like your family members, your friends, your colleagues. And so you can take what you're learning and still hone it, apply it, and practice it with friends, with strangers. And so there's that's one area where I would say if you want to, if you just want to focus on one thing and know that you can get better and it'll have a massive impact on your career, your business, and your clients, it would be the focus on developing great communication skills. I'm biased towards figure out how you can be like the best listener in somebody's life, listen with empathy and curiosity. That's a little bit vague, right? And kind of like nebulous in a way, but if you dive in and get really good at it, it's really easy to separate yourself as being someone that they can come to, that they trust, that they like, right? It's amazing what happens when you get somebody to talk about themselves. And wait, that's a whole nother idea.

SPEAKER_02 57:58

That is a whole other and listen, I did not pay you to say that. Um, just so that we're clear. Like, I have not paid you to say that. But what I would add on to that is more than just agreeing, that is something for those of you that are listening. Meg and I teach the seven core relational skills for advisors. And what Brendan has is is saying there is spot on, like these elite communication skills, uh, knowing how to interact with humans. Like, how do you do that? Right? Like, what are the skills for that? And that's something that Meg and I teach in our advisor foundations community. We'd love for you to join us there. Brendan, if people want more Brendan Frazier in their life, if they're like, man, this dude is so cool. When I'm 65 and he's 65, like I want to do like joint family vacations with him. How can I stay in touch with him? Where can people find you? What are you doing these days? Where are you hanging out?

SPEAKER_00 58:49

As long as he's not at the Swan and Dolphins, I would join him for his retirement page.

SPEAKER_02 58:55

That is a fact.

SPEAKER_00 58:56

Uh, yeah, let's see. Okay, so very passionate about putting out as much as I can to help advisors practically apply a match for the human side of advice. So primary spots for that based on the medium that you like. Uh, LinkedIn's the most regular and consistent. So there's usually something out there every day on LinkedIn. Uh, but then there's also the Human Side of Money podcast, which is where we do a lot of deep dives into these things and how to apply it. Um, and then I also write a blog and a newsletter once a month on the RFG advisory site where we're doing some sort of like research and deep dive article into how to apply the human side, but also we we blend a little bit into like practice management and coaching tips. And then because ultimately coaching is behavior change, how do we design these things so that you actually get follow through and implement them? So we've done this cool thing where we're like, hey, advisors want this type of content. Let's blend the behavioral and psychological element into these things that we're creating. So it's I hard to explain. You got to check it out, but it's been fun to sort of look at that and uh bring this work into practice management and in the coaching realm.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:03

I love it. I love it. Awesome. We'll make sure that we include the links there. And to all of you who are out there listening, thank you for tuning in today. Thank you for allowing Brendan and I into your ears and into your mind. Thank you for following along with us. And if this, if this conversation resonated with you, which I hope that it did, but if it resonated with you, we would both love to keep the connection going. I'm gonna speak for Brendan here. Uh, I think you would agree. We'd both love to keep the connection going. So he listed all the ways in which you can hang out with him. Uh, you can find me on LinkedIn where I share far too much uh information sometimes around this area, insights on how to integrate all of this into your practice. If you'd like more Beyond the Plan, uh, you can check us out on our website, www.beyondthefp.com. You can sign up for our monthly newsletter and find all of the information around our services, our offering, like the Advisor Foundation's community that I mentioned before. But most importantly, don't forget to follow the show, like us, subscribe, uh, rate us five stars only, please. Leave us a great review. Tell us what you liked about it wherever you get your podcasts, Apple, Spotify, wherever you are tuning in, so that you never miss an episode like this one. And until next time, remember, finances don't have feelings, but your clients do. Keep planning, keep growing, and keep going beyond. Thanks for joining me on this episode of Planning and Beyond. I hope you found today's insights valuable and inspiring for both your practice and your personal growth. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. Your feedback helps us reach more advisors like you who are dedicated to making a difference. For more resources, tips, and to continue the conversation, visit our website at beyondthefp.com. You'll find articles, tools, and information about upcoming episodes designed to support your journey and practice. Stay connected with us on social media and never miss an update. Follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn. And remember, the best way to grow is to keep learning and sharing. Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going beyond.