SPEAKER_02 0:00

Giving people space, wanting to learn about their background, of course, asking the right question, communicates so much more. I want to make sure I really get to know you because until I get to know you, I can't really help you.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the show where financial planning meets human understanding. As an exceptional financial advisor, you know that financial planning is about more than just numbers. It's about giving clients the clarity they need to align their money with what matters most. Which is why each episode is designed with that goal in mind. You'll learn how to uncover the psychology behind client decisions and gain insights and behavioral strategies needed to create deeper, more meaningful client relationships. You'll discover techniques for navigating emotional client situations drawn from conversations with leading industry experts in behavioral finance, psychology, communication, and more. Whether it's mastering discovery meaning, handling sensitive client conversations, or understanding what is truly keeping your client stuck, you'll walk away with not only strategies that you can use in your next client meeting, but also the confidence to do so. Oh yeah, hi. I should probably introduce myself. I'm your host, Ashley Kwame, a therapist who somehow wandered into the world of financial behavior and kind of decided to stay. My mission is to help you bridge the gap between financial planning and human understanding. Because remember, finances don't have feelings, but your clients do. Let's dive in. Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the podcast where financial planning meets human understanding. I'm your host, Ashley Kwame, and today I am joined by Jane Mephem, a CFP, and a friend that has been a friend from afar that I'm excited to now kind of make more officially like a friend in real, in real life. Jane and I were talking about just before we hit record here, just knowing sharing, like, I know about you, I know who you are. Um, we had this lovely dinner together uh at a conference, uh, but have just not found our way like to each other uh until until now. So, Jane, welcome so much to the show. I am so thrilled to have you here.

SPEAKER_02 2:23

I'm really excited to have this conversation. I think it's long time coming.

SPEAKER_00 2:27

I know, yes, it is. It definitely is. Well, um, before we jump in um to what I know will be a great conversation, can you share a little bit maybe just about who you are and your journey kind of to financial planning?

SPEAKER_02 2:43

Oh, that's a long one. So okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:45

Well, then a little bit about who you are.

SPEAKER_02 2:47

No, don't worry, I'll keep it short. So, Jane Mayfirm, I own Algon Financial Advisors, which is a firm that's registered in Texas and now California. I'm based out of Austin, and I work with foreign-born nationals, and I'll definitely go into a little bit of a reason why I work with this group. And we do you know holistic world management, the whole nine, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:11

So okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

Well, listen, um, let's go. Like, I'm like, I'm excited. I'm so excited.

SPEAKER_02 3:18

Yes, I was born outside the US. It's probably pretty obvious. And when I was in my early 20s, my parents bought me a one-way ticket and said, Jane, off you go to America, go pursue your dream. One-way ticket, that's key. I get here and I go through the whole immigrant journey, and everybody has their own journey. Even though the journeys are common, everybody has their own unique immigrant journey. Anybody who's an immigrant, I get here, I start out as an international student. So it's F1, OPT, H1B, Green Card, citizenship, and I can walk you through each of those. But obviously, that's a multi-year journey with a lot of challenges that we're already seeing today. But halfway along the journey, or at some point through the journey, I met my spouse. Well, my husband now. He had bought his own way, he had gotten his own ticket, but he had come to the US on a similar journey. He was on what's called an L1 visa. So here we are, we are on uh different work visas. And we knew we wanted to stay in this country. And to stay in this country, you got to get to your permanent residency and then the green card. And we knew messing around with finances and taxes could impact whether you become a citizen or not. And it is true because one of the questions they ask is, Have you been a person of good moral standing? And one criteria is you've been filing your taxes correctly. So here we are. It's like, okay, we need to talk to somebody because we know we want to stay. And it's scary to reach out to financial advisors. At that point, you didn't have small independent farms like ours, and probably some of what you've seen. So it's really this big farms with big mini mumps, but we gathered our courage. The need was great. So we overcame our courage and approached an advisor. And we go to his office for the meeting, and he's sitting across from us, and we're on this side. And he asked us a couple of questions, asked us about retirement. And what we had seen about retirement was people hanging out on the beach, playing golf, or in a nursing home. That's sort of what we had seen up to that point. That was not our ideal retirement. That's not what I'd seen people do back home. And so we're like, yeah, I guess we want to retire. Okay, then he asked us, uh, what about income? And we had just, in my case, I'd just moved from an F1 student to a work visa. Huge jump in income, something to be celebrated. He said, Yeah, that's that's really good. You got great income. But I feel like he missed the opportunity to celebrate that with us because that was a big deal. Uh, asked us a couple of questions about savings, and we are like, Yeah, we're doing this thing. We had got a 401k. Maybe you could help us with that. He's like, Yeah, maybe. Um, asked us about our spending, and I had this color-coded spreadsheet. I was very proud of it. Um but it was missing some things, but that's okay. And then he he he then asked us, um, I think the final question I remember him asking was, oh, we he asked us if we had any questions. And we're like, um, uh, we just bought this great car. My husband had gotten it at like 20% interest rate because he had no credit. And well, like, can you help us with that? And he's like, Yeah, sure, maybe. And we couldn't bring ourselves to ask us about our immigration questions, which is the reason we were there, because he never really gave us an opening, and we never felt that connection. And so he's like, anything else, anything else? And it's like, okay, I guess we leave. And we're leaving there, like, okay, something doesn't feel right. But anyway, a couple weeks later, we come back for our plan, and I still remember my husband saying, You know, that guy was really dressed up. I think we should dress up. So we dressed up to come meet our plan. Uh, he's sitting across from us, we're sitting on their side, and he brings out all these beautiful chats, but didn't make a lot of sense to us. And then he finally says, Okay, you guys have great income, but you're not saving anything. Well, like uh um um kind of starting to pull back a little bit, and um he's like, You're not gonna make it, and he scolded us, like really scold at us. It was really, really bad. We walked out of there feeling like, oh my god, we have failures. We're not gonna make it in this country, even though we've come so far. And part of the question I remember thinking, why didn't he ask us what we were doing with our money? Uh and it's true we'd started making great income, but what we were doing with our money was we had decided the next couple of years we were just gonna visit our family in two countries. This was an impactful time. I'd had a new niece, there was a couple of weddings, a couple of funerals. So that for us was a priority, but he really never got to it. And of course, he never answered our questions because we never got to it. He never asked us, and it's okay he doesn't have to know about integration, but he could have asked us about anything about our mixed marriage, and by mixed marriage I mean uh different countries, you know, different cities and shit. It took almost another five, six years before we'd approach anybody else. Hence, it's the reason I do what I do because there's so many of us that are in that situation that just need somebody that's willing to talk to them and go deep with them and really ask some of those cultural questions, which I feel the advice I missed.

SPEAKER_00 9:07

What does that tell you? Oh, it tells me so much, right? And I think that it's very, I'm truly very thankful and grateful that you're sharing from a vulnerable place, like just like your own experience and what that what that was like. And I would imagine that for many that are listening right now, many advisors that are probably like, oh Jane, I wish that you had probably come see me at that time because we wouldn't have treated you that way. Um, you know, we would have at least made you maybe we wouldn't have had the questions. And it's not to, you know, sure, no all hindsight's always 2020. You didn't know it, you know, and you know, anyway, all that to say, I'm so grateful for you sharing that story. And there's a lot of directions, I guess, that we could go, I think, for for today, like understanding um, you know, a lot more just around culture and working with foreign nationals, working with expats, you know, all of that, like just this umbrella, larger umbrella around cultural sensitivity. Um, and what is the advisor's role in that? Like, how can they be um uh how can they come from a place of curiosity? Right. These are just you know some things that I think that we'll get to today. I'm I'm curious though, uh, you know, you've shared about you kind of that end there of your story. Like, this is why I do like the work that I do uh today. And I love those moments when they lead to uh things like this is why I do what I do, is because I had this experience. And, you know, I learned some things. Uh most of what I learned is that I want to solve for that and I want to do it better, and I want to help people who are like me have a different and a better experience. How has that your personal journey? How has that really influenced the like the way that you listen and make space for culture like in client conversations?

SPEAKER_02 11:15

So that experience shapes everything I do, even with the farm. I mean, not even with the farm, with the farm and within the farm. The way I was treated wasn't right. And again, maybe this person didn't know. From the minute somebody reaches out, I need to respect the fact that it probably took a lot of courage to talk to an advisor. And so I always open the conversation with thank you so much for reaching out. This really is the first step to helping you with your finances. So that's the first step. And then when we start talking, I'm not gonna jump into numbers, even though that's the reason why you reached out. I want to talk about where you're coming from. Now, in today's climate, I'm not gonna ask somebody where do you come from? Where did you come from? I've been asked that question and it doesn't sit well because of especially in the climate that we're in today. But until I understand where you're truly coming from, where your values are, I can't really help you. Does that make sense? And so what I've ended up doing, are you familiar with money cautioned? I am, yes. Oh, we did have dinner with Amy. Yes, yes, yes, wonderful. Yes, yes, I love money cautioned, and I use those tools to help me start digging into some of those. I know for sure, for example, if I think of like a client journey coming to Elgon Financial Advisors, we're probably not not gonna get to everything in that first initial meeting, but I want them to walk away knowing they can actually trust me and trust me to go deeper uh in their lives because until we do that, I can't really help them. So it's being very curious, you already said it, asking lots of questions and uh just sitting back, being comfortable with silent, uh yeah, with everybody being silent and just letting them talk. And when they give me an opening, I'll ask a follow-up question. So, for example, because I'm not gonna ask somebody where you come from, I still find, like I said, even now it's like, oh, I can't believe you asked me that. I will ask you something like, tell me about how you grew up. The minute I ask you that question, if you don't did not grow up in the US, people are very willing to say, Oh, I grew up in India, I grew up in Mexico, and that gives me the opening to then continue going deeper into talking about your background. Does that answer your question, at least as a first step?

SPEAKER_00 14:10

It does. And I think it's a I think that it's wonderful. Um, a wonderful response because, you know, I also hold the same belief or thought that asking someone, hey, where are you from? Um, and sometimes tone matters. So maybe the way that somebody says it, right, or their facial expression while saying it, maybe it can communicate something different. But, you know, I think that there are in a professional setting, the work that advisors are doing, outright asking somebody, where do you come from? Where are you from? You're not from around here. How'd you get here? Um, you know, those questions I'd like to give some um the benefit of the doubt in in just saying that I wholeheartedly believe that they are trying to get to an answer and not trying to be sure offensive. I I wholeheartedly do believe that. However, um, you know, however, there are different approaches. And the one that you shared there, I think is really great. Tell me about what things were like for you growing up. Um, you know, tell me a little bit about your family. There are certain questions that one I just think is good, those are good questions to ask anyway, and like to try and understand. If we're trying to understand who this person is, those are just great questions to ask. And I, similar to you, have found that when I'm working with clients. I was working with a Nigerian couple who was based in Canada. Um, and so working with them was talking, and and I I knew some of their background already per the advisor. But as soon as I said, hey, I'd love to hear a little bit about your story. Would you mind just sharing with me what were your experiences like growing up, like with money? Um, thank you. Thank you. I'm glad that I get I'm glad that I get a round of applause from you, Jane. Um, like as soon as I asked that, you could see, and I'd be curious if you have this experience too, but I could notice that the couple like just kind of relaxed uh a little bit. Um, and they were very open, right? We come from, you know, two different tribes, like within, you know, Nigeria, two different families, just in like very different. One was more well off, wealthier, the other like was not. And so it was so fascinating. Um, like I just lit, I loved hearing it. But I found that they really relaxed then, and then in relaxing, you know, really gave a lot of uh just very rich information um that was helpful, so helpful for me as the practitioner being able to work with them.

SPEAKER_02 16:50

That's that's that's I was gonna say that's fantastic. And what you did is what I say to other advisors all the time. You're curious, but you also asked it in a non-threatening way. And you're really they could tell you're coming from a place where you really want to land. So when I first came to the US, one of the things I found a little, I don't want to say annoying, but it wasn't. I moved to Massachusetts and compared to the South, I think, and I'm being very careful here, people may not be as open to talking to strangers as much as, and especially from where I was coming from. And so when I would meet people, and I'm thinking, don't they want to know anything about me? It sounds like it's all about them. So you've done such a great job asking them, saying, tell me more, and really sitting there and listening. Good for you, Ashley. You got it. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 17:53

I appreciate that. I I guess I'm having a connection right now that maybe um I would like your feedback on. And some of this is I'm trying to also put myself maybe in an advisor's shoe who might be thinking, like, well, why is that offensive? Like, why is it not great for me to just ask where where are you from? And I guess the connection I'm having right now is that because it may communicate to the um to the client, to the other person that you are really actually not interested in them. Um you're not curious, you really are not very interested in them. Maybe some, maybe amongst some other things too, but you know, asking something in a client professional situation, right? Like, hey, tell me a little bit about what what were what was money like for you growing up, or tell me a little bit about your family, uh, your family system and you know what money was like for you. That I think communicates a lot more just interest in the person. I don't know. I'm curious.

SPEAKER_02 18:51

No, you're absolutely right. So, like I said, I use money cautioned. In in money cautioned, we talk a lot about their background. If you look at like some of the forms, you go back to tell me how you grew up. So I just uh uh completed, and and I guess I'm still in the in the midst of it an engagement with uh a business advisor. No, uh what would I call her? Because she's amazing, but I don't know if I should give out her name. She's like a business coach. But anyway, one of the things she did for me, she said, Jen, I'm gonna talk to all your clients so I can help you with, you know, we're working like on my sales process and a few other things. She talked to my clients and she came back and said the one thing that came out constantly was we know Jen was very interested in getting to know us because she asked us all about how we grew up. And she said, Don't worry, this is part of the engagement. She really wanted to understand not only how we grew up, if we're from different countries, what money was like again as a kid, what money means to them. And every one of them has actually come back and said, it's like therapy. So, what it tells me is that they feel hard, they feel that somebody truly cares beyond just the numbers and beyond just the money. And the fact that they're here in a new environment, probably nobody else has taken the time to do that for them. Because I do find a lot of the clients or prospects that reach out to me, I'm actually the first advisor they've worked with. So there's still that sense of there's that industry over there, and then okay, there's Jane, let's test it and see what it's like. So for advisors listening to this, uh giving people space, wanting to learn about their background, of course, asking the right question, communicate so much more. You're not just interested in uh I need to say making money, it's not business as usual. You're considering them as like somebody said, a client of one, like you're my only client, Ashley. And I want to make sure I really get to know you because until I get to know you, I I can't really help you. And for somebody to say, we've Jane has become a friend, she's helped us with these things. I had no idea until they talked to this person, it was like, wow. So I think that to me has been the key takeaway, and it's what we want to say to clients, regardless of where your clients come from, ask them some of those questions that nobody probably ever asked them.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

Yeah, I love all of that. Okay, so Jane, so in your work with clients from other countries or even just different, different backgrounds, um, what are some of the maybe meaningful ways that you've seen culture show up in financial decisions, whether they're That's maybe around savings, um, you know, whether that's around like family or just risk, like what are some of the ways that you've seen culture show up?

SPEAKER_02 22:08

The biggest one is, and then there's a couple of them. Most of the folks that I'm working with are first generation. And by first generation, I'm talking in terms of they're the first ones to come to the country. So when my parents bought me that one-way ticket, there's a lot of implications in them helping me come here. And part of it was we actually had to call like our neighbors, and the village literally came to help. My first year's tuition we did a fundraiser, and that's what we did for any child that was going off to America because we know not only are they going to help the immediate family, but we know they're also gonna help the extended family. There's always that expectation. So I'm at a point where I know I don't need right now, let's say, to help my parents, like financially. Actually, my mom just passed away a while back. But one of the biggest expectations and one of the things that I see people carry is that weight of I need, I am supporting my family back home, which is a little different from what we do here. I did a post one time called I Am My Parents' Retirement Plan. And I got a bunch of DMs from people saying, Jane, that's me. So, Jane, we educated you, we sent you to the US. We expect that you're going to help us when we retire, whether it means bringing us here or sending us money or supporting us. And so that is so big that when we start looking at your spending plan, and that's what I like to call it, I don't normally ask, oh, um, how much do you send money home? I basically say, Oh, and here's a bucket for the money you're sending home. And they're like, Oh, yeah, it's a thousand, two thousand. So that seems to be like almost every group. So now understanding that has made it so easy that they don't need to explain to me why they're sending money home constantly. Does that answer your question? And I got a couple more examples I can give you. It does.

SPEAKER_00 24:27

Yeah, and it's also consistent just with what I've seen as well, like working with clients. There is that, yes, like we will be, we do send money home. You know, we pay for things uh for our parents. My husband uh was active duty military, and we were actually stationed in South Korea for quite some time. I didn't know that. And yeah, we had um, I oh my goodness, uh, if I didn't like my family, I think I could have lived in in South Korea for much longer. They know they know I feel that way. I have told them that. Um but it's a good thing I like them because they could have stayed there.

SPEAKER_01 25:04

I just thoroughly listening.

SPEAKER_00 25:07

My mom probably will. Okay. I don't think my dad and my brother do, but I think my mom may. Um but I I loved it there. And it, you know, we um we came to uh to befriend um, you know, folks from actually several other countries, the Philippines actually being, you know, we several people there. And it was very common, like even for Filipino, like to send money back to, you know, like their family. Um, you know, and it was interesting when I was doing therapy, like that could be a rift sometimes within the couple system, um, especially, you know, if there was an American partner, um, you know, and then a Filipino, uh, like that became a rift sometimes. But I've worked with a lot of where there is, it's that is just the expectation is that we are taking care of our our extended family. And I think you're right, you made such a great point that at least here in the States, like that is not always common practice or expectation, and that can bump up against a little bit of like our own as a practitioner, like what's our own bias, right?

SPEAKER_02 26:13

Yeah, um, there too.

SPEAKER_00 26:15

So the expectation maybe around sending money home or supporting other family members is how you've seen culture show up. You said that you had a few other examples that I'd love to hear.

SPEAKER_02 26:25

That was one of them. And actually, I'm gonna say in mixed marriages, which is what I'm in, that's a big one. And you already hinted on it. Yeah, maybe we can talk about I'm not saying mine, but about it in a different conversation. Mixed marriages, and I keep saying when you got mixed marriages, but we're not talking races, yeah, we're talking different countries. That's huge, huge. So, another one I've seen is um this group will educate their kids about college and beyond. They would rather not say for retirement, they would rather say for college. I'm in that situation. My parents sent me to college. My kids are going to college, whether they like it or not, in a good way. Because and the whole idea is education is such a big deal of a lot of these cultures, because it's only in the US where quote unquote you can quit college and still make it big. In a lot of other countries, the way you make it big is really uh, you know, go to college, get you all the degrees that you can, and maybe work in academia or whatever the jobs are. So that's always been a big part of I'll see uh a lot of people are reaching out because we're about to have a baby and we want to do a college fund. So I won't even start with retirement, even though I know they need that. The other interesting thing I found with this again, first generation, and by first generation, like me, who were born outside and now they're here, we're a little bit of risk takers. And by risk takers, I mean I moved thousands of miles from my family to come and pursue this dream. And so even when I look at their investing activities, which is interesting, I don't see a lot of debt, so that's not even something I now bother bringing up anymore. I tend to see a lot of cash, but I also tend to see like a lot of investments in, you know, like single mutual funds. Um what's the other one? Coinbase, what do you call that? Crypto, you know. Yeah, something like that.

SPEAKER_00 28:42

I was gonna say, I'm not your girl for that. I'm not, I got the basics down, but I'm not your girl for the details.

SPEAKER_02 28:48

Quite a bit of risky investments, which is interesting. But when I think about the fact that to them here, that's already a risk, you know, coming here, it kind of makes sense. If that makes sense. Um, another one I'm thinking of is so this foreign-born group that I'm talking about, I do have to sometimes divvy the map into two groups. There's those ones who are already citizens, you know, naturalized citizens. They're those who are green cut holders, and then there's the majority who are here on work visas, which is the most precarious situation right now. The assumption being you're gonna work for a while and then you're gonna go home, whatever home is. But very few people want to go back now that you have this opportunity. And so you'll find a lot of their like investing behavior, they they do want to invest back home, whatever home is. I know there's a little bit of a home bias, but it's also the whole idea of, and again, things are changing right now so rapidly. Um, we don't know what's gonna happen here. We need to take care of ourselves, we need to take care of our families back home.

SPEAKER_00 30:00

I don't know if that answers your question. Yeah, I know it yeah, it does. And it's consistent too, I think, with um, you know, I I certainly do not have as much experience as you do. Well, personally, but then also professionally working with clients um from other countries or mixed culture uh there. But I would say from what I have seen, yes, like all of that does make sense and is consistent. The risk taking is so interesting because like when I was listening to it makes a lot of sense. I just don't know if I've ever directly connected it in that way that, you know, around taking financial risks associated with you're right, it is a huge risk to leave your home and to move to another place uh and to reestablish yourself there. Now, whether that is by choice or not, like it is still like it's still risky to do that for in a lot of ways. I've not connected that though to money. And so I really appreciate you bringing that up because I know that is very helpful for me. Great. Uh that is very, very helpful for me. I guess I am curious, and this is I'm deviating a little bit. So I was sharing with you about um before we hit record, like a client who um, you know, is a you know first generation here. And uh they uh, you know, based on where they were from, and I want to be careful, I don't want to give too I don't want to give specific details, um, but based on where they are from, which historically has seen war uh and chaos and turmoil, um, you know, the anxiety and uncertainty like around the state of the world or just like the financial markets has led this client to wanting to just, you know, pull everything. And I don't know if that's necessarily risk. Maybe it is, but I guess what I am curious is that when there is a threat to like security um from clients who are foreign nationals, uh, like I guess how what do you see there? Are there any trends? Is there any insights or patterns that you see? I'm putting you on the spot, sorry.

SPEAKER_02 32:28

We can think about it. Okay, actually, let me let me let me go back a little bit. We did a podcast a while back when the whole tariff situation came up because we've had the question, things are so bad, we just take our money and leave. What I've learned, or at least the way we've dealt with it, and even what we talked about on the podcast, the first thing is yes, I get it. I see what's happening around. I'm not ignorant of that, but I want to have the kind talk to me a little bit more about what their exact fears are. And you start talking about it, and like I said, with the tariffs and all that stuff. In this situation, giving them numbers isn't gonna help them. The key thing is have them talk to you about their fears. And then one thing I like to say to a lot of clients is I'm invested in the same stuff as you. And then we'll go back a little bit to when we started. This is what you said. I still haven't addressed the numbers. And yes, I can see they're dropping. I mean, you can see all the red, you know. This is what we talked about, what has changed. It's it's a bit of a nuanced conversation. What has changed to bring us to this point? And yes, I get it. You you're concerned. I am concerned about it too. We talk through that and we'll talk about when we started, you told me you don't need this money for the next 10, 20 years, right? So if nothing has changed, one, if we pull out the money, and we know, for example, the country you mentioned, we can't really take it there. Where are we gonna take it? And let's you're being very gentle about it. You're not like sure. And when are we gonna get back into the market? What needs to happen for us to say, let's get back into the market? And so we talked through all that, we talked about reviewing your plan, and then it's like, okay, let's pick up the conversation, maybe next week or whatever, and come back. And if you still tell me you really want to do this, okay, we'll do it. A lot of it, I think it's the end the fear of what's gonna happen. They they truly don't know and they don't know where they're gonna go. I don't know if that's helpful or not.

SPEAKER_00 34:52

No, yeah, it is. And uh, you know, a lot of that I would say the way you articulated it is the way I appreciate the way you articulated it because some of that might be, at least for me, so you know, this is about me right now, maybe how I was thinking um, or trying to frame this, but maybe not quite in the way that you just did. And so your verbiage, I guess, around that is really helpful just to hear from a framing standpoint. Before we continue, I'm gonna pause for just a second to tell you about something I'm so excited about. And yes, I know that this is a classic podcast move, right? But just stay with me here because if what we've been talking about today resonates with you, this is going to feel really relevant. If you're a firm owner, if you're an advisor who knows that there's more to financial planning than the numbers, but maybe you're not quite sure how to systematically bring the human side into your practice. I want to tell you about our foundations offering. This is a three-tiered offering that Meg Lurts and I created to help advisory firms integrate financial psychology into every area of support, client support, advisor support, even including firm support. We have done for you quarterly trainings, bi-monthly case consultations, on-call one-on-one client coaching sessions, white label newsletters, client-facing tools, even strategic support that builds your team's confidence over time. If you're ready to transform how you show up for your clients, visit beyondthefp.com to reach out to us and start the conversation. All right, let's get back to the show.

SPEAKER_02 36:34

Okay, so let me add one more thing to that. So for people on visas, like I said, it's a very precarious situation right now because you could meet, you know, who I'm talking about, and they say, you're out of here. So what I've done with that group, and I've actually literally created a new service offering called the exit plan. I said to them, what can we control? Let's focus on that. So here are the things we can control, right? You're telling me, like you're giving them practical things. Okay, you're telling me you have this money in a 401k. If something happens and you have to leave, it's at a custodian that I know does not like having um um foreigners on their system. We'll make a plan. So if you have to leave, you can move it over here. So we're getting all your staff together, we'll get your estate planning together, your insurances, everything we can. Make sure we're working on what we can control, and you have a plan that if things happen, you can just pull the plan and leave. And I just finished a project with a client, and what they said to me is, I know my visa situation hasn't changed or hasn't improved, but I now feel like I'm in control of my money, my planning, and I really have a plan that I can implement if something happens. And I'm like, if they come for you, and I kind of said it as a joke, but he and he laughed. If they come for you, call me after you call your lawyer, you know. But he's like, Yeah, what you're talking about. So it's like being in control. So let's whack focus on what we can control is really what I'm also talking about about. And I think that's fantastic. There's nothing I can do about it.

SPEAKER_00 38:28

Yeah, well, I think that's just fantastic um advice or a way to frame that, right? Is let's have a plan, whether that's um, you know, an exit plan or just a uh a control plan. Um, like let's just have a plan for what are the things that you can control and let's maybe focus on that for this time being there, which makes a lot of sense. Makes a lot of sense. Cool. Okay, so Jane, we've talked a we've talked um a bit earlier um in in the show around asking about culture and you know, how it is probably not wise to say, where are you from? Um, and you know, I'm sure that, you know, for some advisors, you know, they there is maybe a worry around I don't want to say the wrong thing. Maybe they're curious, like, but it's like I don't want to say the wrong thing and I don't want to be offensive. You know, I heard you guys say that I should be curious and I can ask about history, but like what if like I don't get some of that information? Or like how else maybe can I ask about culture? Um, how else can I, you know, uh frame some of this without being without being offensive? I might be awkward, uh, but I at least maybe so that I'm not disrespectful or offensive.

SPEAKER_02 39:46

I think that really asking about how people grew up that truly gets people to talk. If it's a couple, if you ask them how they met, you're probably gonna start getting some amazing stories. Oh, I was stationed in South Korea, and then I met my, you know, and then it's like, oh, tell me more about you gotta keep saying tell me more and really be genuinely interested. Are you familiar with the book Ask by Dr. Solon? I mean, not Doctor, I'm sorry, Dan Solin. Um ask, ask, ask. I think that's what it comes down to. And then very good follow-up questions. Be on the lookout for lack of a better word for openings, if that makes sense. But also understand it may not happen all at once. So I'm working with another client, and they're actually a mixed marriage couple, and we started working, we we signed for like a one-year engagement, and he's been very like and you know tough. No, I wouldn't say tough, I think it's more we want to make sure we're getting our things solved. And I kept saying, um, and and and that's his personality, and I and I get it. And I really like to do this value stuff or lack of a better word, at the beginning. And um, when we finally got to it, and we really talked a lot about like the why behind, and again, just digging deeper. And again, it's not a one-time conversation. He's come back and said, I'm enjoying learning so much about why I'm why we do what we do. And in my mind, I'm like, I think my work is done here. Um, I think you gotta be very patient, you gotta be very curious. You're not following a textbook. Um you gotta listen, you gotta give them space, but really tell me how you grew up. To your point, tell me about growing up with money. Um, tell me where you guys met, how you met. A lot of people want to talk about that. I think there's a lot of openings you can find. Oh, tell me where you went to school. Tell me what schooling was like growing up. Uh oh, what kind of school did you attend? Oh, okay, you know, and and just keep working with them. And again, a lot of them they do want to talk, but nobody's giving them that opportunity. And let me say one more thing. I think about when it comes to money. Uh, when you're here as a foreigner, and by as a foreigner, you're foreign born. There are a lot of situations where you don't fit in. And by that I mean you're a stranger in the community, right? You don't know how people behave, you don't know how people react. Money is supposed to be, we know it's not, but you know, you think everybody knows how to invest and they know everything about money that you don't. And you come into this situation, a lot of the people, again, the first generation that came here on work visas, you probably, and I put myself in that situation, your academic qualifications are through the roof. These are usually like some of the brightest that come to go to school here. So you have all those academic qualifications, and then you find you really don't know about money because it's a different system, but nobody explains that to you. Any difference, anything that magnifies the difference for you just makes you not fit in the community. Does that make sense? It just made it just makes us feel more, and I'm kind of pulling back, you know, like um we we continue feeling strangers. So anybody coming in to magnify that difference, come on, how can you not know about our though? Whatever all these investments are so uh what I like to say to advisors uh uh please when you approach these people. Or coming with uh I want to educate you, but not from here, more like as a peer. And I'm very happy to explain everything to you, even though, and I'm not going to assume that just because you got your PhD in whatever, that you know how these things work. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 44:21

No, it does. I think that's a fantastic, you know, a fantastic point that, you know, in thinking about like for US advisors, like what are things like that they need to be aware of? And I'm so glad that you mentioned that because, you know, you're right. I think inadvertently shaming, right? By like, how do you not know about this? You know, it it can come across as shaming, which um well, it just doesn't feel good. Um, it just doesn't feel good, um, nor is that good for the relationship as well. And so I love that idea of not assuming that they may know how, you know, at least here in the US, like the US like financial system works. Because, you know, look when we lived in Korea, I didn't know how the Korean financial system like worked there. Now we were protected a bit by, you know, being connected with the military. And so I recognize, like, I recognize that. But even still, like, uh, you know, there are certain aspects of daily life uh and getting around that we didn't know. Uh, we didn't know about. So I think that that is important.

SPEAKER_02 45:29

That's such a good example. Now you'd say, okay, we need to get our finances in order so you find a Korean financial advisor. What would that have been like?

SPEAKER_00 45:39

Oh my goodness, I would have been oh, so anxious. Um, I was anxious when we met our realtor who um helped us with our apartment.

SPEAKER_01 45:50

Perfect.

SPEAKER_00 45:50

Um, and you know what, he was not a financial advisor. But here's what was so lovely about him. Um he took so much care and like time to he now he mostly worked with Clayton because I was in transition to coming in country. Uh and so, but when I got there, you know, he was so lovely, even to me, but even took the extra time to label Jane. He went in our apartment and labeled um like in the kitchen, uh, like our um fridge and like our microwave and some of like the things that were, you know, in Korean, like where I wasn't gonna be, I was not gonna be able to read what's the on and off switch. Um, you know, I didn't know which one was the kimchi fridge and you know, but he took the time to do that. And so from an experience standpoint, I think for advisors, like, you know, you don't know maybe sometimes how worried or anxious like a client might be, but also taking a little bit of extra time to kind of go that extra mile and not assuming, yes. Um, and you know, just saying, hey, like how about I help you out here? Would it be okay if I Yes, ask for permission? Yeah. Would it be okay if I helped you out? Or would it be okay if I, you know, came with you to do this or got on the phone and like, you know, was there for that phone call as you know, you know, maybe called? Um, just those little extra things I think can make uh can make a huge difference uh for clients there. Um okay, Jane, sadly our time is coming to an end. I always hate this part. This is literally the worst part of the conversation. Okay. Um, all of my conversations that they have to end because just so great and lovely. Is there anything else, so just from your experience, that you would like for um, I'll say US, US board and like advisors to know uh about working or serving international clients or multicultural clients?

SPEAKER_02 47:54

So I think we've talked a lot about the cultural part of it. The next big thing, I think the elephant is a room, is the immigration stuff. So client, I'm sorry, advisors. If you're gonna work with clients on different visas, you need to know that stuff. There's just no way around it. That's that's what I'm gonna say. Because you advise a client the wrong way based on their immigration stuff, and you could end up hurting them. So that you have to know that stuff.

SPEAKER_00 48:24

Yeah. Now I know that you are a fantastic resource. Uh, and I'm not gonna steal your thunder. I know that you have a you have a podcast and I'd love for you to share about that. But other resources maybe for advisors, um, if they're curious and want to learn more, um, albeit you know, about immigration or just cultural sensitivity.

SPEAKER_02 48:45

So the the cultural sensitivity, I I I think you, Meg, you know.

SPEAKER_01 48:52

Oh, you are so getting following.

SPEAKER_02 48:56

I don't know that there's a body of published work, but following people like you, honestly, who are talking about this, I think that's that's that's that's one way of doing it. The immigration staff, like I said, I I know a lot of this, and I know I know a lot. If you ask me about any specific work visa, I can tell you. And the way I've learned is by networking with immigration lawyers, spending a lot of time on its USCIS website. So I'm really on top of what's changing in this space. They as an advisor, uh, you have to make the effort to learn all that stuff. And you could just start with one particular visa, learn as much as you want about it. Come talk to me, I'll talk to you about it. I actually did a Kitts' article, and I'll send you a link to that that talked about how visa holders work visa holders in the US can invest, and it's still, I think, very, very valid. Um, this this obviously, oh, there's my podcast. I have to talk about that. The international money cafe podcast that I do with Summit, that's become a really good friend. She's a cross-border EA. The way this started, it was almost like a joke. We met in a webinar, we kind of headed off, and we started meeting every Friday for a coffee chat, and we just talked all this nerdy stuff. She she like is like a walking IRS tax code, and she's so good with it. And then I'm bringing the financial planning stuff, and we were like, why don't we record this stuff so people can listen in? So we're now like episode 60, and you can find us on LinkedIn. And initially, we were doing this podcast for foreign-born nationals, US experts, but we're finding a lot of advisors and CPAs following us. So we're gonna start doing some things like webinars, is what we're thinking specifically for for advisors. So if they follow us, I think they're gonna learn a lot. Um, and then there's like a bunch of other trying to think. I do I attend like a lot of uh cross-border kind of tax webinars, but a lot of those will be paid. The bottom line is people can't just escape in. I don't think that's the right word. It's that you have to be intentional about learning about you know what impacts this group if you're gonna help them. That's that's a way of look at it.

SPEAKER_00 51:25

Yeah, I would agree. Well, I think that last point really just hits the nail on the head is that if you are intentional, uh, you know, if you seek it out, if you know, uh, it will lead you, right? Whether hopefully it's just to Jane's podcast. Um make sure that we include that in the show. Appreciate that as well. So I'm grateful for you sharing that. Well, Jane, thank you so much for coming on and sharing all of your wisdom, uh, all of your insights. If people want more, Jane, I know that I know where to find you. Uh, where out other than your podcast, where can people find you?

SPEAKER_02 52:00

Uh, LinkedIn. I hang out there a lot. I think we've seen each other there. Or they can go to my website, elgonfa.com.fa.com.

SPEAKER_00 52:09

Perfect. Well, be sure for those of you who are listening, be sure to go and check Jane out. Um, she is lovely and lovely to connect with. Uh, and thank you. Thank you to all of you for tuning in today uh and allowing Jane and I into your mind, into your ears. This conversation resonated with you. I would love to keep the conversation going. You can find me on LinkedIn at Ashley Kwame, where I hang out and share weekly insights on the human side of planning. And if you want even more Ashley Kwame in your life, uh be careful. Um, but if you want even more Ashley Kwame, you can head over to our website www.beondthefp.com or our YouTube channel at Beyond the Plan Solutions. Uh, you can follow us there. Make sure though, most importantly, make sure that you follow the show so that you never miss future conversations like this one that we had today here with Jane. And as always, my friends, remember finances don't have feelings, but your clients do. Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going beyond. Thanks for joining me on this episode of Planning and Beyond. I hope you found today's insights valuable and inspiring for both your practice and your personal growth. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. Your feedback helps us reach more advisors like you who are dedicated to making a difference. For more resources, tips, and to continue the conversation, visit our website at beyondthefp.com. You'll find articles, tools, and information about upcoming episodes designed to support your journey and practice. Stay connected with us on social media and never miss an update. Follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn. And remember, the best way to grow is to keep learning and sharing. Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going beyond.