SPEAKER_02 0:00

And maybe they feel that they don't need to run every specific business, you know, decision by them. But I would argue that if it involves the couple's finances, then it does warrant the conversation. Because as I'm sure you've heard before, like money is not just money, right? It's power, it's control, it's all of these other things. And it can really trigger a lot of those inner feelings that we might have. And so I really think in those situations, you need to, you need to talk.

SPEAKER_01 0:27

Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the show where financial planning meets human understanding. As an exceptional financial advisor, you know that financial planning is about more than just numbers. It's about giving clients the clarity they need to align their money with what matters most. Which is why each episode is designed with that goal in mind. You'll learn how to uncover the psychology behind client decisions and gain insights and behavioral strategies needed to create deeper, more meaningful client relationships. You'll discover techniques for navigating emotional client situations drawn from conversations with leading industry experts in behavioral finance, psychology, communication, and more. Whether it's mastering discovery meetings, handling sensitive client conversations, or understanding what is truly keeping your client stuck, you'll walk away with not only strategies that you can use in your next client meeting, but also the confidence to do so. Oh yeah, hi. I should probably introduce myself. I'm your host, Ashley Kwame, a therapist who somehow wandered into the world of financial behavior and kind of decided to stay. My mission is to help you bridge the gap between financial planning and human understanding. Because remember, finances don't have feelings, but your clients do. Let's dive in. Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the podcast where financial planning meets human understanding. I'm your host, Ashley Kwame, and today our special guest is Dr. Jenny Olson, assistant professor at Indiana University. Jenny is remarkable in the sense that she studies something that I love to talk about. And her research focuses on this, amongst other things too. And that is couples. Shocker. I know. For those of you that know me, you know I love talking couples. And today, actually, Jenny and I are going to get into something a little bit more specific within the couples realm, something that's not really talked about and really not even researched a whole lot about. And that is financial infidelity. But before we get in, Jenny, I want to say hi. Thank you. Welcome to the show. I'm so glad you're here.

SPEAKER_02 2:43

Yay, thank you. And like you, Ashley, I love talking about couples. So this will be a fun conversation. I really look forward to it.

SPEAKER_01 2:49

Yeah. And you know, what I say for a lot of the guests that come on here, it'll probably be too short as well. We won't be able to get to everything, unfortunately. But that just means you'll have to come back on uh at a later, later time and date. So I know that I just kind of dropped a bomb in saying that we're going to talk about financial infidelity. And there may be some advisors who are listening and thinking, oh my goodness, like that sounds scandalous. And maybe not even something that applies to me. Like, why are we talking about financial infidelity? What is it? Can we start maybe just high-level Jenny? Like, what are we talking about when we say financial infidelity?

SPEAKER_02 3:30

So the cleanest definition is something uh my co-authors and I developed in a paper a couple of years ago. And we define financial infidelity as intentionally engaging in financial behaviors that you expect will be disapproved of by your romantic partner, and then subsequently concealing them. So importantly, there's really two components to that definition: there's an act and then there's subsequent concealment. And when you have those two things together, that's how we conceptualize financial infidelity.

SPEAKER_01 3:57

Yeah, yeah. I remember some early conversations several, several years ago and talking about financial infidelity. And there were some misconceptions around what it was. Like, you know, it involves an affair with somebody else and spending money on somebody else. And so I love that you and your colleagues have defined this pretty explicitly here. Can you maybe just give briefly like common examples that maybe you guys see around what financial how it plays out, couples?

SPEAKER_02 4:26

So, in terms of some common examples of financial infidelity, there's a lot of different domains. And so we identify around six different domains, but I would say the biggest one is hidden spending. So it's spending maybe more than you think your partner's going to like approve of, and then you're hiding it. So it's spending on extra things on Amazon, for example, and you hide the evidence. You know, I've got shoe boxes in my own closet. And so, you know, we uh we kind of do all these things. It's also concealing income. Like if you get uh an unexpected bonus at work and then you don't let your partner know about that. It's things like maybe splurging on a lot of gifts for family without your parent your partner knowing about it. And it's not just spending, it can also be things like saving. So if you are secretly saving money to pay down debts and things, like on the surface, that might seem like a moral and virtuous activity, but at the same time, it implies a certain degree of distrust. Like if you're not telling your partner this, like what else is going on, right? And um, I've heard lots of examples, you know, over the years and studying this, and those are some kind of the big ones, I would say.

SPEAKER_01 5:33

Yeah, I've the saving one is particularly interesting to me. And I have worked with a few couples. One comes to mind where, you know, they were not in agreement around how much to be saving to put in their retirement accounts. And the husband wanted to save, you know, a lot. Let's just say a lot more. A lot more. But there was this pretty common tension between we have kids, we're in a quote, busy phase of life, we should enjoy some of this, we shouldn't put all of this. And the husband, you know, very, very, very vigilant around savings. And to your point, like he was saving behind his wife's back. And it came out in a meeting, and the wife was, you know, she was very upset. Let's just say, very, very upset. But it was hard because, as you said, it seemed virtuous, right? Like it seemed like, you know, but we're saving and I'm doing this for our future. But there was this like feeling of betrayal almost.

SPEAKER_02 6:32

But why aren't you telling me this? Why aren't you? There's opportunity costs, right? Like that money could be used for other things. And, you know, if we're in this together as a team, we both should be involved in those discussions and have a certain amount of transparency. And financial infidelity directly violates transparency.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

It does. Yeah. That's a great way to frame that. Okay, so you've given a few just common examples. Is there anything around just high-level kind of financial infidelity, like things that it's not? I mean, I mentioned like affair, you know, people think that it's involved in like sexual affairs, you know, and certainly there can be a component there. Don't get me wrong. But like, are there any myths out there that are worth dispelling around what financial fidelity is or isn't?

SPEAKER_02 7:17

Yeah. One thing that comes to mind that it is not is it's not just general secrecy. So for example, this is something, I mean, hopefully my husband Nathan's not listening, but sometimes we like secretly watch extra episodes on Netflix. I won't tell if you don't tell. I definitely don't. Or if I go and eat extra Oreos or something and not telling my partner, if I'm like eating extra desserts or something without telling my partner, we don't conceptualize general secrecy in terms of financial infidelity. And the reason is because the resources have to be interdependent, right? Finances are interdependent. Whatever you do directly affects me, right? And so when I am secretly saving or spending, it impacts our ability to make decisions together in the future. Whereas me, you know, eating a few extra Oreos at lunch doesn't really, it doesn't impact my partner's weights per se, you know, and so there's not like those direct costs. And so we really think that it has to require that interdependence, which is another reason why, at least in all of the work we study, we really focus on marital relationships because there's also that legal piece to it. So with cohabitating, yes, there's also a degree of interdependence, but it's not legal in a sense, right? Or sometimes people ask us, well, what about parent-child relationships? I think there could be some financial infidelity, like if a if a if a parent is spending an inheritance down, but then it but then there's also these power dynamics of like, yeah, but it's there, like you know what I mean, it gets a little complicated. And so we really believe that it has to happen in the context of interdependent relationships, which involve money and not just like any other resource like food and things.

SPEAKER_01 9:06

Yeah. And I'm curious, like from just a in terms of like from our research and even definition place, I would imagine, and I'm guilty of this too. I have purchased things where, you know, no, I have not told Clayton about it. Now, granted, he can see our credit cards because everything we have is shared. So I don't know how secret transparent is because he sees everything. But anyway, there is the like, I have not shared this information. And I'm just wondering if like single acts of lack of transparency, if that falls under financial infidelity, is it or is it more of like a pattern, like behavior?

SPEAKER_02 9:43

That's a good question. It can be individual acts, but the way that we at least have studied it in our work is more as an individual level propensity.

SPEAKER_01 9:54

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 9:54

Like some people are just more likely to do this. That said, we all kind of have a base rate of it, you know, and even one big act could be a big, you know. Actually, my favorite example of this is I think SNL had a spoof where they show uh a guy surprise his wife on Christmas with a new car, and then she's like, What are you doing? And he expected like all this excitement, right? And so it could be that single act, you know, and then you find out about it, and then that's where that friction comes in. But not all single acts, right? So, like to your example, you know, do you expect, I think you said Clayton, did you expect him to disapprove of it, your spending?

SPEAKER_01 10:30

And if not, if I brought a car home, Jenny, then yes.

SPEAKER_02 10:33

Right? Right?

SPEAKER_01 10:34

For sure.

SPEAKER_02 10:35

No, whereas like if, you know, and again, my own situation, like I buy like new clothes a lot, but I don't necessarily expect my partner to disapprove of it, but I still kind of hide it. So if I just conceal, but I don't think he's gonna care, then it's not financial infidelity. So it really needs both pieces. So that's that actually a good example of that is gifting. So if I'm buying my partner a birthday gift and we've had we've set a spending threshold, like right, the amount of money that we can spend without discussing it, but I'm hiding it. Yes, I've achieved concealment, but I don't expect my partner to disapprove because it's for a birthday and it's within our greed-upon budget. And so you really got to have those two pieces. And so, yes, kind of circling back to the question, a single act can represent financial infidelity, but it's also this individual level propensity. Some people are just more likely to do it.

SPEAKER_01 11:18

Yeah. Well, and I think the distinction there too, around having both the concealment and the disapprovement is really important to keep in mind. And I would imagine, I don't know if advisors uh like listening to this right now, if they're like, oh yeah, I've certainly heard of like discussions that come up and one partner is not approving of it, even you know, if the amount seems frivolous or what rate, yes, there is a level of disapprovement and maybe even concealment as well. Okay, so let's get a little bit maybe more granular here in talking about some of your latest research and that being on financial infidelity and and the impact of like the couple and like their well-being. And in that research, like you talked about financial infidelity asymmetry. We have kind of this nice, beautiful definition of what financial infidelity is. What is financial infidelity asymmetry as it relates to as it relates to couples?

SPEAKER_02 12:16

Besides a mouthful, like saying that's always like, yeah. When I talk about this work, I'm like financial infidelity asymmetry. So how we define that is it's the degree to which two partners differ or diverge in the degree to which they're likely to engage in financial infidelity. So, in other words, we all have kind of like we were saying, we all have these individual propensities. How different are we? Just like, you know, your partner might be relatively more introverted and you're extroverted, like the degree of different, right? So it's the degree to which you differ in your likelihood of engaging in financial infidelity.

SPEAKER_01 12:48

Okay. All right. And so I'm curious because I think that is really interesting. What did you guys find there? What were some of the findings as it related to who is more likely to engage?

SPEAKER_02 13:01

Yeah, so what we did is we looked at financial infidelity as a couple level phenomenon. So we were somewhat agnostic to the identity of like which partner is more likely than the other in a relationship because we do find that there are differences. Like on average, most couples do differ, or I should say most partners within a couple do differ to some extent. And what we find is that couples where there's greater divergence, like so the more different we are in this propensity, it actually products lower assets. Like you have less money in your bank account. We had real bank account data. You are less happy with your financial well-being. So you just you're not happy with how you're saving, you're not happy with how you're spending together as a team. And then third, you also express lower relationship satisfaction. Like you're just not happy. And yeah, and so we, and what was interesting too is we thought, well, is it possible that divergence in any sort of trait predicts the same, you know, negative outcomes? Like, so if we're just more different in extroversion, if we're more different in goal commitment, if we're more different in all these other things. And we find that financial infidelity proneness. So this financial infidelity asymmetry is the stronger, most consistent predictor of those outcomes in those three domains. In part, what we think is going on is that when you are more discrepant in this tendency, you have less unified financial goals, right? You're just not on the same like level. Like if you're not talking, you're not communicating, it's a lot more hard, it's more a lot more difficult to kind of create a central image of what this partnership is going to be. And then that's what causes that downstream friction.

SPEAKER_01 14:34

Okay. All right. So what I'm hearing right from you is that this asymmetry piece, right, is from a predictive standpoint, really impacts not just, you know, how satisfied they feel like as a couple, but also assets too, like bank account information. Okay, so let's pull back a little bit. And I'm thinking about like our listeners right now, and maybe there's a couple like that kind of comes to mind there. And they're hearing some of the things that you're saying, and they're like, gosh, that couple, you know, it's really been just kind of a struggle here recently. And, you know, they don't have as much as maybe what they quote unquote should. They're certainly not on the same page with some of these goals, or there's just these things that crop up and it's this tension kind of friction like point there. What are maybe just some other like flags, red flags, pink flags, blue flags? I don't know what the color is, but what are just maybe some other like flags, everything, given everything that you just shared, like that advisors might want to be on the lookout for when it comes to signs of whether it's financial infidelity, asymmetry, or just financial infidelity more broadly.

SPEAKER_02 15:47

Yeah, so we we have not delved into specific examples per se, but I would say just from our own observations and our own work, is that it's things like when one partner is dominating the conversation, it implies that they have greater access to the information, which could mean an asymmetry. So lack of transparency, I think, is the big one. So when both partners are maybe expressing their goals or their hopes for their portfolio, whatever it may be, and there's disagreement. Like, wait a minute, you didn't say that before. It implies that there's not communication. I think communication is at the heart of all of this. I, and actually, my father-in-law is a retired financial advisor, and he often talked about this where you know you'd see a couple and one person's doing all the talking. And you're like, what's going on here? Right. And so that you get into like these power differentials and all these different things. And it could be that one partner is just not aware of what the other is doing. One thing I should also mention that we I find really interesting from an academic standpoint is that financial infidelity pronus is correlated with a lot of different things, including psychological entitlement, narcissism, kind of like those Machiavellian traits. And for the person who's doing the talking, like, let's assume that maybe they could have more of that psychological entitlement and like feel like I don't have to tell my partner what I'm doing. It's my money. So I think those sorts of attitudes make kind of ripe for these grounds or these dynamics to happen. Another big one is separate bank accounts. And I say that cautiously because just because you have separate bank accounts does not mean you're engaging in financial infidelity or that there's some sort of asymmetry. But what it does is it provides an opportunity to make concealment easier. And so if partners are not on the same page, that could then be, you know, being played out through separate bank accounts.

SPEAKER_01 17:32

Yeah, the separate bank accounts is something that has come up as more of a question, like should we or should we not? And I feel very similar in that just because you have separate accounts does not mean that there is, but there is an extra layer of work and effort that needs to be put in to have that transparency. And so that extra hurdle, if you will, you know, some couples are willing to rise to the challenge and some are just not. And that can create just some difficulty there and set couples up for financial infidelity there. So, okay, here is a, and I'm not asking you to like case consult uh or play therapist here, but this is something common that I hear and see and have had advisors even ask on in terms of how to handle for business owners. You're working with a couple, one or maybe both partners, but one partner is a business owner. And you know, there is this like I don't want to say entitlement, I don't want to say confusion, I don't want to say whatever it is, but there is this thought that you know, well, but this is the business, and these expenses, these purchases, or you know, the financial decision making in the business, like my partner is not a part of. And I want to run something through the business, like I don't have to tell then my partner the flip side of that, right? The partner, how much are we making? And oh, what is that? I didn't know that you were doing that or purchasing that thing. And it's I hear it's for the business, but the business also impacts our personal life. And, you know, couldn't we be drawing more from the business if you weren't doing that? Like there's just this really messy place, I think, for couples where one or both partners are are business owners. And from my experience, this is where I see a lot of financial infidelity occurring. I'm curious your thoughts. I'm curious if there is any research, you know, maybe there or looked at what you guys have observed through your research as it relates to couples where maybe one or both partners is a business owner.

SPEAKER_02 19:47

So I'm like, I'm smiling as you're talking about this because I have a very close example of this to my heart, and I hope they're not listening, but I have heard this exact same.

SPEAKER_01 19:55

We're just gonna bar everyone, Jenny, that like you like, I'm just gonna make a list of all the people that like you don't want to listen to. We'll just make sure that they, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:02

Screen them out. No. So anecdotally, yes, I've heard this example before. People have written this in, like when we do surveys and things and we ask couples, you know, this comes up a lot where I have a business. I have to maintain separate accounts for tax purposes and all these different reasons. And then the other partner feels really frustrated by this because they feel like, you know, the business owner partner is, you know, making all these secretive decisions without them. And I'm here to validate those feelings. Like you said, I can play therapist a little bit. So I think those feelings are super valid. I think the way that I would approach that is I do think there are economic reasons why you may have to maintain some separation, right? Like you're separating business um finances from, you know, personal finances, so to speak. But that said, I really think it requires those conversations. Like you need to be on the same page because if one partner is feeling like the other is making decisions, sounds like there needs to be a conversation. We need to get on the same page. You know, the business owner can say, look, I have to maintain these accounts for these purposes. This is important. And maybe they feel that they don't need to run every specific business, you know, decision by them. But I would argue that if it involves the couple's finances, then it does warrant the conversation. Because as I'm sure you've heard before, like money is not just money, right? It's power, it's control, it's all of these other things. And it can really trigger a lot of those inner feelings that we might have. And so I really think in those situations, you need to, you need to talk to avoid the likelihood of concealments and to be engaging in acts that you think will be disapproved of. And just to throw this out there, I have some work in progress where we not the specific couple scenario, but in general, we find that couples expect talking about money to be much less rewarding than it really is. Well, yes, yes. We have all these, you know, we've done a lot of diary studies where we recruit couples and we have the have a financial conversation. Like we want you to talk to your partner tonight about money or time or whatever different resources, and then we recruit them back the next day and we say, How did it? Go. And it turns out it's not so scary. It's not as bad as you think it is. And so I think a lot of these things also, you know, maybe afraid to broach that topic. So if you find yourself in that situation, you know, if your business partner, partner or not, have that conversation because it's not as bad as you think.

SPEAKER_01 22:15

Yeah, I cannot wait for that. Please send me an email. Please let me know. That sounds interesting. I mean, so Clayton and I find them incredibly rewarding, these conversations, but we're weird. Like we're, you know, self-selective. Yeah, right. Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate I appreciate that. I appreciate that terminology versus just weird because I'm like, well, we're just weird and we get a lot of satisfaction. And it's very rewarding, maybe too rewarding to talk about. But I would agree with, and I think maybe in an advisor's role kind of in this place is, you know, to gently kind of set the stage for that. And there's a lot of different ways that we could go about doing that. But there are some for gently setting the stage for being able to do that. I had a, I was recalling a couple as you were, as you were talking there, where uh debt came up and you know, business owner taking on debt without telling the partner. And it was discovered like in a meeting, like paying down a loan. And it was what loan? And it was, oh well, this business loan that we had to take. What do you mean you take out another business? Another business loan. Now that conversation was not very rewarding. But the non-business owner partner, you know, actually kind of threw that conversation and after said that she felt better, like knowing and talking about it. Her partner was really afraid that, you know, his wife would become upset, but also convinced himself that she just didn't really need to know because it was with the business and he doesn't want her freaking out or becoming upset or like worried. He used the word worried. But she was like, Well, I feel better like when I do know. Like it is actually, you know, she didn't use the word rewarding, but like it is better. I like knowing. I'm okay, like having that conversation. I do want to know. It puts us on the same page and it feels good.

SPEAKER_02 24:09

And that's like that's what I was saying with that financial goal alignment. Like once we're on the same page, it feels better. And actually, what we find too about like why you think things are gonna be worse is because you think there's no closure. Like it's just an uh, it's like an ongoing thing that never really settles. But in this case, it sounds like it's settled because then that person felt better knowing this information.

SPEAKER_01 24:27

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I get where like we it's hard to step into the waters of the unknown and like the scary, um, especially when we're, you know, we have all of our own like kind of money stuff there too. And then we have to navigate, you know, our partner's money stuff. That can be pretty scary. And I can also see kind of bringing us back to financial infidelity, like it makes a lot of sense then why people hide purchases or or savings or spending. Like it makes a lot of sense from a place of just vulnerability, or if they don't think that as your upcoming research is gonna show that financial conversations will be rewarding, like it would just make a lot of sense where concealing purchases or spending where they feel like their partner may be disapproving of it would make a lot of sense. I'm not saying it's right. Oh, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 25:14

Yeah, this is just these are descriptive findings, right? Like what's right, wrong, like even harm, like the extent to which this harms different couples varies. But like you said, I think it really comes down to that anticipated disapproval, which I think is what drives the concealment, right? I like you said, like the business owner, I'm afraid that she's gonna be uncomfortable or upset about this. Like you're worried, which is why you hide it. But then it comes out and then it, you know, now it's kind of like when you, if you suppress emotions too much, and then it comes out and you like blow up. And so like it can lead to to bigger issues down the road. So, yeah, conversations, transparency. I would also recommend planning the conversations. And I'm sure you've heard this a million times too. Like, nobody wants to get this sort of stuff sprung on them, like in the middle of a meeting. You're like, wait, what? And then it's like blindsided, right? Let's set aside time so that you have time to think through it, prepare thoughts, like even jot down notes just so that you have everything there, because that's gonna feel a lot better. Because then there's more control of that situation.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

I want to take us back to something that you mentioned earlier around the impact of financial infidelity asymmetry. And that is on a couple's satisfaction and well-being. Now, I know you talked a little bit about just kind of numbers, like having less assets, but can we maybe talk a little bit about your findings? Were there were there anything specific around well-being or satisfaction, like in particular areas? Or was it just maybe more general well-being and satisfaction were lower?

SPEAKER_02 26:46

Yeah. So we focused specifically on relationship satisfaction. So how happy are you within your marriage? Like, is this a good partnership? Is this a good union? Those sorts of metrics. And then for financial well-being, we really focused on a subjective sense of well-being. So, you know, the extent to which you are happy with how open you are with your partner, how happy are you with the amount that you're saving? How happy are you talking about money? So, kind of more of a generalized, we're doing well here. And then with assets, that was the more objective measure. So we had bank account data from a couple's money mobile management app. It's a mouthful. I'm not sure if I'm saying that by the way.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

Oh gosh, that is also a mouthful.

SPEAKER_02 27:26

Yes, it's a mobile app designed to help couples manage their finances together. And we looked at, you know, each partner's propensity to hide accounts because it's awesome. This this platform actually allows you to, well, I shouldn't say awesome, but again, from a research standpoint, you can choose transparency settings, how much you're hiding from partners, then we correlated that with their actual assets. And so they, the more discrepant you are, you save less money together. And it goes back to that point of like you're just not having unified goals.

SPEAKER_01 27:53

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Okay. And so some of the well-being parts of that on the subjective side. I know that you've done a lot of research kind of just in this area, but was there anything that surprised you or stood out?

SPEAKER_02 28:04

I think the thing that surprised me the most is just how open people are about it. Like a lot of people, and I always say this with um when I study couples, I'm always shocked at how forthcoming people are. Like I find that couples want to participate in this sort of research because it's a nice opportunity for self-reflection, right? It's like, huh, I'm doing this thing. So, like, we actually developed an instrument. So you, if you know, listeners are interested in seeing this, where you can gauge people's level of financial infidelity proneness and just how people are willing to acknowledge it. The other thing that I will say that is kind of an important caveat to all of this work is that we in our data do not observe couples that are both really high in this quality. So a lot of our assessment is really, we're really looking at people where they're both very aligned on the low end, like we're not doing this, to couples where there's a bit more divergence. So, in our own data, I think the people that are maybe really struggling with this are not willing to participate in this sort of work. And so, you know, from a financial advising perspective, I would love to hear more about because I'm sure people have seen clients like this where there's a really high level of this, you know, discrepant, like we are both raging financial infidelity people, right? And I think it could be going back to the self-selection, I don't, I don't think those unions make it.

SPEAKER_01 29:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:25

There's a lot of important dynamics there. But I think that actually that is one of the more surprising things is we don't observe those couples, but I think they're they're more clinical couples, right? Like you're not in there struggling, there could be other things going on. But yeah, so I think those are the two things that kind of surprise me the most.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

Well, for those of you listening, if you have any of the couples where both of them are high on the, you know, prone to financial infidelity, send them Jenny's way. Yeah. Uh is what I'm hearing. I want to send them so she can and and put out some really great research and findings. But that makes a lot of sense. Just, you know, I think that scale one is super interesting. I would love to take a look at it myself. And I'm wondering, too, just like from a takeaway standpoint for advisors, you know, you shared that how willing couples are at being open or talking about some of this. And so I'm just wondering from like an opportunity place, like, you know, is this something that advisors can ask about in their work if they get kind of a spidey sense? If so, like how might, or are there any, are there like one or two questions maybe that you think would be just a good starting place in asking for advisors?

SPEAKER_02 30:37

Yes, I think from a financial advising standpoint, I think you should ask about financial infidelity behaviors. I would just just my gut reaction says not to use the word infidelity because I think that what I'm not cheating on my partner because, like you were saying, it's not just sexual infidelity, there's emotional, but we're looking at the financial piece. So I think focusing on the behaviors, like, you know, do you ever spend more than maybe your partner knows about? Like, because then it takes the the judgment off the person and it's more about the behavior. I think it's also focusing on the couple. Like this is our behavior, our dynamic as opposed to pointing fingers. So, like, you don't want to call out one of the people, you know, one of the partners. I think it's more about like, so as a couple, how do you talk about money? You know, kind of those broader, more open-ended. And then I would also pay attention not to just what's said, but also nonverbal cues, right? Is one partner kind of like getting real shifty eyed and kind of looking away or blushing or getting uncomfortable? That tells you something, right? And I'm sure you've seen your customers.

SPEAKER_01 31:38

Or they or they do like the very overt like head turn and like look oh yeah, the other accusation, like they're not saying it, but the the speed and intensity at which the head turns is very telling.

SPEAKER_02 31:55

I wonder if I can calibrate that uh in the lab. But yeah, just kind of asking those broader questions about, you know, tell me more about how you talk about money. Tell me about, you know, how how are you feeling about your spending these days? You know, kind of these broader questions that aren't pointed at one person because then they're gonna go on the defensive and just kind of shut down. And so I always um, and again, my my financial advisor, father-in-law always was always brought this up about how it's it's therapy in some ways, right? Like you have to not only manage the economic resources in front of you, but the interpersonal dynamic and the couple and like they're gonna leave that meeting with the information that was just discussed. And so, like, they have a life outside of that office. And so that's something to kind of keep in mind about kind of asking broader questions and maybe avoiding the the term infidelity, because I think that could kind of set people off.

SPEAKER_01 32:40

Yeah, I would agree with you. Uh, I echo that in terms in terms of not using that word infidelity. And I love what you said in as far as focusing on the behaviors, like asking questions that address the behaviors, not you know, do you engage in financial infidelity?

SPEAKER_02 32:56

Yeah, do you lie to your partner?

SPEAKER_01 32:57

Do you lie? Do you conceal and lie to your partner?

SPEAKER_02 33:01

Um exactly. Maybe you would get some people who are honest, but I think that's why we developed the scale to be about behavioral type things because we knew because it's a self-report thing, people aren't gonna want to say, Yeah, I lie to my partner all the time, right? It's more about here's this behavior. Does this ever come up? You know, to kind of get that.

SPEAKER_01 33:20

Yeah, I love that. I think that's a what a great resource. So I appreciate you offering offering that. As we are wrapping up, Jenny, is there anything else like around just this research on financial infidelity or financial infidelity asymmetry that you feel like is important for advisors to know about, maybe that we didn't touch on or get to today?

SPEAKER_02 33:42

I think we've talked about a lot of the dynamics itself, but I think it's also important just to recognize that this is really common. Like in our own data, I mean, we're seeing like 30% of couples are acknowledging it in their relationship. And that is just the people who are willing to acknowledge it. So it's actually higher. And so I think this is a much more common thing. But like you said, it's it can be a bit taboo, it can be a bit uncomfortable, but I think it's important to recognize that this could be in the backdrop, in the background. People might use different words. Uh, another word that I I've seen, I think, in the Wall Street Journals, like stealth shopping, right? Like, so these all these different, again, behaviors that would fall under this umbrella. But I think it's just important to recognize that it's more common than you realize. And I think people might be struggling with it. And if they are struggling it, you know, and they're not sharing the full picture with their partner, they're probably not sharing the full picture with you as an advisor. And so to kind of try to get at that can really help, you know, kind of improve outcomes on both sides.

SPEAKER_01 34:40

Yeah, I love that. I think that that's a great, a great point. And I'm glad that you shared just statistically how prevalent, at least from what we know, but also what we don't know, uh, but could assume. Well, thank you, Jenny, for coming on and sharing all of your wisdom and insights uh around this topic. If people are listening and interested in learning more about you, learning more about your work, could you share with us where they can find you, where they can connect with you?

SPEAKER_02 35:06

Yes. So um my personal website is jennygenolson.com. So, yes, my middle name is Jin after my aunt ginger, not the liquor. And so jennygenolson.com, I have um links to different papers there. I have my contact information. If people, you know, want to connect, feel free to email me and I'd love to chat.

SPEAKER_01 35:26

Awesome, wonderful. We'll make sure that we include that in the show notes uh so that you can easily connect with Jenny Jen. Uh yeah. I love that. I love that. And thank you to all of you for tuning in today and allowing Jenny and I into your ears and into your mind. If this conversation resonated with you, I'd love to keep the connection going. You can find me on LinkedIn at Ashley Kwame, where I share weekly insights on the human side of planning. And if you want even more planning and beyond, if you want even more Ashley Kwame, that might be kind of dangerous, I'm not sure. You can head over to the website www.beyonthefp.com, where we put out a monthly newsletter for all of those who are subscribed. Make sure to follow the show so that you never miss any future conversations like this one. And as always, finances don't have feelings, but your clients do. Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going beyond. Thanks for joining me on this episode of Planning and Beyond. I hope you found today's insights valuable and inspiring for both your practice and your personal growth. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. Your feedback helps us reach more advisors like you who are dedicated to making a difference. For more resources, tips, and to continue the conversation, visit our website at beyondthefp.com. You'll find articles, tools, and information about upcoming episodes designed to support your journey and practice. Stay connected with us on social media and never miss an update. Follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn. And remember, the best way to grow is to keep learning and sharing. Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going beyond.