SPEAKER_00 0:00

And the student said, you know, mostly from that time, I just remember being hungry. That room was silent. There was just a lot of people in the room, and nobody knew what to say. When you ask a question like that, you know, you have to be ready for some pretty intense answers. And it can't just be like, oh, you know, you go to tears. And so this is preparing for you, you know, as the advisor, but this is also preparing for the safety of this life.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the show where financial planning meets human understanding. As an exceptional financial advisor, you know that financial planning is about more than just numbers. It's about giving clients the clarity they need to align their money with what matters most. Which is why each episode is designed with that goal in mind. You'll learn how to uncover the psychology behind client decisions and gain insights and behavioral strategies needed to create deeper, more meaningful client relationships. You'll discover techniques for navigating emotional client situations drawn from conversations with leading industry experts in behavioral finance, psychology, communication, and more. Whether it's mastering discovery meanings, handling sensitive client conversations, or understanding what is truly keeping your client stuck, you'll walk away with not only strategies that you can use in your next client meeting, but also the confidence to do so. Oh yeah. Hi. I should probably introduce myself. I'm your host, Ashley Kwame, a therapist who somehow wandered into the world of financial behavior and kind of decided to stay. My mission is to help you bridge the gap between financial planning and human understanding. Because remember, finances don't have feelings, but your clients do. Let's dive in. And that is our intro, my friends. Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the podcast where financial planning meets human understanding. I'm your host, Ashley Kwame, and I'm already laughing. And we are like only 20 seconds into the recording right now. And the reason I'm laughing, we're gonna make it, we're gonna make it. The reason I'm laughing is because, in case you can't hear, I have my friend, colleague, and new collaboration partner, Meglerts, here with me. And she and I like to have a good time. We also like to talk about cool things, relevant things that apply to financial advisors. And so that's exactly what we're gonna be doing here today. This is the first episode. If you've been listening for a little while, I mentioned that part of season two would be introducing what I'm calling the how to series. I know that's very clever, super clever. And so how to, dot, dot, dot, whatever it is, right? That kind of then comes there after that, right? And so taking on just questions that either I've had from advisors or just observed practical implementation, you know, strategies, skills, something that both Meg and I are actually really passionate about. And so I wanted to bring her on today as the first, first of the first for this how to series. But before we get into the how to dot dot dot, first we're gonna talk a little bit about this new collaboration. If you follow both of us on social media, maybe, maybe you've heard the word on the street in that Meg and I are collaborating now, showing up in each other's work. And so we're gonna take just kind of a few moments to explain and talk just a little bit about that. What does it mean? What does it look like? And then we'll get into how that's relevant to the how-to series that we're gonna be talking about today. Meg, I have been talking for way too long as you've been sitting there laughing. And I'm trying not to laugh, looking at you laughing. Welcome. Thank you for coming on, humoring me on this. How are you doing, my friend?

SPEAKER_00 4:06

I'm well, I'm well, I'm doing well. Happy to be here as well.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

Awesome, awesome. Well, listen, you and I have been chatting all things collaboration. And so maybe let's just kind of start. I know we've put out things just on social media and in, you know, newsletters and just kind of like announcing it, but I thought it might be nice to just talk, talk through like what is this collaboration? What are we doing? I'm gonna let you go first. Mick, what are we? What are we doing?

SPEAKER_00 4:34

That's a good question. I thought of just having a good time. So it's fair to say we should probably just acknowledge the fact that I do do a lot of things. Like it is part of my process, if you will, to collaborate on different things. And some of the stuff that that we are collaborating on as it pertains to beyond the plan and also with less lonely money, we're working with individuals. You know, so if you've got clients that want to talk, we're working with them. We're working with advisors, we are working with firms, and all with the goal of bringing the psychology of financial planning, behavioral finance, financial therapy, you know, into practices. You know, I mean, I re I can remember 10 years ago, like being at a conference and A, I'm the only psychology person, B, somebody asked me if I would get copy because they thought that I worked there and that I wasn't there to speak. And then when I like talked to this particular person, I said, Yeah, you know, I'm gonna be talking about psychology. And they're like, I'm not sure that I believe in that. And I was like, cool, we will, we will probably not be friends, but um, you know, like I'm here. This is okay, this is how it's going. Flash forward 10 years, people are much more open and accepting and excited, you know, about what this means. And there's so many pieces. I mean, I know that you're working on an article, I write a lot. It can mean so many things, financial psychology. And the different firms that we work with, the different people that we work with, the different advisors that we work with, they are all manifesting what that might be for them. You know, like when you're when you get into the individual level, everything is a little bit different each time. And so even though there may be some rules of the road in terms of you're working with humans and humans kind of work in a particular way, there is still the way that you want to do it, the way that it's gonna come out with your clients, how open your firm is or not to things like financial therapy. And this is not a good or a bad thing. I think maybe for some firms it works really well, and for other firms it may not make as much sense. And so just the I am super attracted to what we are doing, super excited about what we are doing in just the sheer number of creative projects, creative ideas, you know, coming in from clients, advisors, different firms, like what they want to do. It is, it's just exciting. Like that's it's honestly like my creative happiness is in that sort of chaos of there, there are things that we know, there are things that you want to do. What does it look like, you know, to attempt to put those things together and to work with to work with you, who people may people, maybe people don't know. We've been friends for a long time and you know, have never necessarily collaborated. We've collaborated in the sense that like we call each other and talk, but not like a formal collaboration. And so to work with you, who I consider to be one of the brilliant minds in this space, I'm super, super grateful.

SPEAKER_01 7:34

Yeah, samesies, same. That's nice. Did uh did a I sound so smart right now. Like you said, all of these really wonderful, like brilliant like things, and then my response is like same zone. Yeah. So let me just follow up that really fantastic compliment that you just gave me about being a quote unquote like brilliant mind with samesies, and there you go, folks. Uh yeah, yeah. So this collaboration, I am, you know, I have to contain my excitement, similar to, you know, kind of what you've shared. It's been a long heart desire of mine to collaborate and work on cool stuff in this space. And, you know, part of you know, collaborating too, and I would imagine this resonates with um some advisors out there, maybe listening, doing things alone sometimes, it kind of stinks. And yeah, like building, creating something alone, like it's cool for a while until it's not cool. And so for me, you know, coming into now, oh, it's kind of hard to believe, three years since I really started a hard pivot. Um, two years since I launched the fractional offering of working inside of firms as a behavioral officer. Um, that feels a little crazy to kind of say, you know, it's kind of reached a point where it's like, okay, like, you know, I can only do so much by myself. And if it's going to grow, which I passionately believe like in the work that both you and I are doing and bringing it to firms and not just the big firms that can afford it, but to, you know, all firms that want it, right? I knew, at least for me, like I can't do it all.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

Like this, that that is whether it's from university, whether it's from working at the Kids' platform, people at Shaping Wealth, like one of the places that a place that has always helped me in deciding where am I gonna go next is who believes in that philosophy of education is for all. And everywhere I have worked believes in that. And so the sheer amount of content that that you put out, that I put out, that I've put out with other firms that I've worked with in the past, it is all related to that idea that that this is not just for somebody that can afford it, like this is for anybody and everybody who's willing to try it.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So as far as kind of the collaboration piece, to go back to some of what you shared, we've been talking about this at really three different levels. There's the client support level, there is the advisor support, and then there's the firm support. And what's amazing, like when I have stepped back, is you and I have natural strengths, like zones of genius. And a lot of it overlaps, which is great. It's fantastic. The ways though, the parts that don't overlap, they complement each other just so nicely that, you know, for me, it's kind of a, you know, if I think that a fractional chief behavioral officer or bringing even not just like that offering or that role, but just if bringing financial psychology, behavioral finance, financial therapy to firms, like what is that? Where does it fit in? And it is on the client level, it's on the advisor level and it is on the firm level. Like I wholeheartedly believe that is the integrated approach, right? And so you and I just complement each other in our zones of genius and our overlap where we do overlap. It's just very nice and it works together. And so it's like a no-brainer. Like, if in thinking about like who would I work with to kind of do this role, like, you know, you have always been like top of mind, you know, there it's a short, short list, you being top of mind. And so, you know, I'm grateful. I'm excited, as I know you are, to be, you know, collaborating, working together, not just in Beyond the Plan, but also in all of the fantastic content that you've been out built out within Less Lonely Money, which is a just a fantastic resource. If you're listening to this and you're not familiar with Meg's Substack, uh Less Lonely Money. And there is a free version, there's a paid version, and Meg puts out just the most brilliant, like practical, down-to-earth tools there. What else do you want to say about less lonely money? Maybe before we kind of shit that kind of stole your spotlight there talking about it. Sorry about that.

SPEAKER_00 12:09

Well, it's okay. I am bad at sometimes about talking about myself. Less lonely money. If if you've maybe followed my articles on the past on the Kids' platform, or if you followed my work at Shaping Wealth, Substack has been kind of an interesting thing in that it's very personal. So the articles are long like they are on the Kitses platform. It's only because, I don't know, writing so many of those for so many years, I just can't, I can't seem to write short things. But it's super personal. I talk a lot about my own life, my own thoughts and ideas. No article is really the same. It doesn't necessarily have a same structure, but it's all it's all around thinking about your money, feeling your feelings about your money, just different stuff that that comes up related to motions, philosophy, psychology. It's all kind of baked in there. And it's been really, really fun to do that. And so if you enjoy that and you want 4,000 words in your inbox once a month, then go sign up for the uh free version. The paid version, if anybody is wondering, is definitely more for financial advisors. It has a client-facing newsletter in it. If you want a newsletter written by myself, and it has, in relation to that newsletter, a 30-minute meeting guide. So it's got some questions related to those topics. You know, the thought being you send this newsletter, some random client says, Hey, I read that newsletter and I was thinking, and now you think, great, come on in. I've got I've got some stuff to ask you. We can have a little meeting about this. So it does work together, and those are always based off of the bigger post that went out earlier that month. So it's all connected. And hopefully, Ashley and I will be doing a little bit more. There is a LinkedIn series that is strangely popular called um Ask and Understand.

SPEAKER_01 13:56

Strangely popular. This is where you are so like you're so you are so humble. It is brilliant. And the thing that I try to send to Clayton all the time, you know, yeah. It is fantastic. You should go and subscribe, not just to the free version, but you should do the paid version because as an advisor, like there's some good stuff. And I don't just say that, I mean, I am biased, obviously, but it is also good. We will be doing more and more stuff kind of within each other's spaces and working together. And it's all exciting. And here is where it comes together as far as what we are doing here today. So I mentioned earlier that, you know, part of season two is doing a how to series. And Meg and I just kind of walked through a little bit about what we're doing together, some of the work, like what that what that looks like. And there is this, you know, kind of overarching almost theme to it of like how to, like how to do this better, how to show up better, how to do whether it is how to communicate about, you know, estate planning or legacy planning with your clients, how to do that better, how to just ask better questions, how to, which is what we're gonna be talking about actually today, how to ask about a client's money history. And so with that, we're gonna go and we're gonna dive, we're gonna dive in. You'll hear Meg and I just kind of go off and talk really about how as an advisor, so keep in mind, as an advisor, that's the that's the distinction here is how as an advisor, can you even should you? You know how I feel about the word should. It is, it is judgmental and we might get a little judgmental, but how should you be asking about a client's money history? So, Meg, before we get so excited and passionate about like the how, let's maybe just kind of start. Like, I want to know just kind of when you think about a client's like money history, let's put like just some definition, maybe kind of to that. Like, what what comes to mind for you like when thinking about a client's money history? Like, what is that?

SPEAKER_00 16:10

So I think actually, I know similarly to you, think in pretty broad like decades, you know, like there's like I'm 41. So, you know, you could ask me about my 30s, you could ask me about my 20s, please don't. You could ask me about my teens. And, you know, you could probably even ask, like, younger than that. But when when we think about money history, there is that. I can also say that when I was in school at Kansas State, one of the coolest projects I ever did, which was probably like the project that made me fall completely in love with financial therapy and just how interesting it is, Christy Archoleta's class at the time, Dr. Christy Archoleta, and it is called Money in Relationships. And part of her class, we were supposed to go interview like our mom and our grandparents or our aunts or our great aunts, or like we those all ladies that I listed. You're supposed to just like talk to people in your family about money. So there's there's even within money history, there's like generational history too. So there's there's my life history, but then there's family history, which could and does pull in some very interesting things. So it's it's a very big space. It's it's not just like one decade.

SPEAKER_01 17:30

I had a client one time, an advisor client, ask me, like, does a client, when we say like money history, is that like, do we mean childhood? And I thought it was interesting because I guess I had not thought about it, like maybe from that place. And so, you know, money history is literally everything before today, that is history. And so it does not have to be childhood. It is and can also include those generations, like the relationships there. It does include that. And it also, when you ask about it, like money history, maybe if you just think about it as everything before today. You know, I think for some advisors, and you know, you know this, there's the like, I don't want to play therapist and like I don't want to go back like into their childhood because I don't, you know, or there are some advisors that are like, yeah, let's go back. Like, let me like kind of understand that. But you know, if you're maybe not quite as comfortable, but recognize like having some historical context might be helpful. Maybe just thinking about money history is like everything before, everything before today. It could be just the last 10 years of like their adult life, like for you, right? Being 41. Hey, tell me about just like the last 10 years, like what's been going on, you know, like money-wise. I've had some advisors that have tiptoed back in there and they're like, oh gosh, I didn't even know that you went bankrupt 10 years ago. Uh and it's like, hey, that's kind of helpful information to know, to know, and to have. That's history.

SPEAKER_00 19:02

So I think I want to ask you a question about that. I wanna, well, I I guess I want to clarify why asking about history is important, you know, because so much of financial planning is just about going forward. I mean, like, we are meeting you where you're at today. So I could probably, if I if you force me to, make an argument that says you don't even need to know that stuff. You're just like where you're with them today. And yeah, that all the historical stuff like came into that. Um, but we are moving forward. So maybe we don't need to do that. So I think it's probably fair that we take a second and just clarify like, why is that important or why would that be important that we would know about history?

SPEAKER_01 19:46

You're right. Like financial planning reminds me a lot of solution-focused therapy, right? Coaching, right? Where it's like a present and forward, you know, engagement relationship with the clients. Like it reminds me a lot of that. Here is where history can be helpful and important. When a client is stuck, when there are difficulties around behaviorally taking action, when there are maybe emotional reactions that seem out of proportion. Sometimes knowing a little bit of like that history piece can be helpful. We were, we, me, I act like you were there. I wish you were there. This would have been cool if you were there talking with a client. We're talking about just, you know, some goals and like kind of values, and we're talking, and I forget exactly like kind of what I've what I said, but something kind of made me go, huh? Like this seems really important. They're saying the same words like over and over and kind of in the same way. And so like I'm getting the sense that there's something driving that, and it'd be helpful to maybe understand a little bit more about that as the planners and the situation are working on crafting like the plan. And so, you know, I just kind of ask, like, hey, like this seems really important. And I've heard, and I reflected actually really just kind of what I what I said there. Like, would you mind sharing with me a little bit more about why this particular thing, and I won't name it just from a sense of, you know, confidentiality here, you know, but can you tell me a little bit more about why, like why this thing is so like important to you? Like, can you share with me a little bit? And they went into actually history all on their own. Like I didn't actually directly ask. Where that was helpful, though, is from a place of planning, planning out goals, you know, for this client in particular, looking at the next five years as they were in that retirement, you know, place. Like it helped like the planner in that situation know, ooh, okay. I think we kind of should maybe prioritize maybe this thing. And maybe if we do both, like if we do one or the other, it's really not that big of a deal. But like my recommendation is that we would prioritize, you know, options. B over here, but the client, I'm getting the sense now after hearing some of that history and like how big that is emotionally, like, okay, it's become clear that, you know, we actually need to go with focusing on, you know, priority thing A over here. So I say that just because I think that history can inform some of the planning recommendations and help get clients unstuck. What about for you? Why, like, why do you from your lens and working with advisors, where do you see history, knowing a client's money history, playing a role in helping advisors maybe do the work that they do?

SPEAKER_00 22:35

So I do think that there is an interesting thing that comes with the stuck part. I think maybe we'll get to this later, but I want to make sure that to me, this brings up like an aspect of timing, you know, like when you when you ask about, you know, because this came up naturally in your conversation with this client. And when you were saying client, you actually meant a financial planning client, not an advisor. Correct. Yes, exactly. And, you know, so this person's talking, but they're not upset. Maybe they don't even necessarily think they're stuck. They're just kind of talking about what needs to happen. They keep using the same words. You and your training have picked up on this, and now we can help craft like, well, it could have been, you know, taking the fork this way or that way, and we went, we went this way. So, in some ways, maybe we even avoided getting stuck. You know, I think that for financial advisors, I just want to be careful with this idea of stuck because we don't want advisors to be like, oh, well, my client clearly has like some issue that they're not working through. And so now I need to go dig into their history to find out what in the H is wrong with them so that we can get past this. And so there is a natural way to bring up histories, and and it's maybe unfair to say a natural way, because that just seems like something you should know how to do, which it's hard to do unless you've thought about it and been trained. But in the same way that Ashley mentioned, like, you know, she's hearing the same thing again and again. Maybe they're saying the same word again and again, maybe, maybe it has been two or three times that they've come in to talk about selling the family house or something, and they're not able to move forward, then it can be like totally appropriate and fine to just say, let's let's talk, let's like zoom out for a second. You know, let's talk about this from like a different perspective. That, you know, clearly this is not just a money decision. Let's talk about some of the other things that are going on that are driving some of this. Totally good. But I just want to be careful that we're not like on the lookout for, oh, my client's stuck, something probably happened to them when they were young. And I will even use myself as an example. So thanks a lot, Dr. Christy Archiletta. When I was taking that class, I interviewed a bunch of people in my family. And come to find out, one of the themes, and I've talked about this a lot, so I apologize if you've heard this on some other episode, but like one of the themes that that came out was all the women in my family, like back to my great-grandmother, had to like hide money. My great-grandfather was a drunk, my great-grandmother had to hide the money so that she could feed her kids. Flash forward to my grandmother. My grandfather was not the best. He left my grandmother. She had to sell some of her stuff in order to take care of her five kids. Flash forward to my mother. My father is a wonderful man. Her first husband, not a great man. But even through the divorce with my dad, you know, it's like still, you know, you have to be able to take care of, in my mom's case, four kids. And so growing up in my household, it was always a theme that got said to me, different from what got said to my brothers, that you need to have money to take care of yourself, which on the surface is like fine, like, yay, women empowerment, like have your own dollars. But this, this was like a warning. And so now, flash forward to me in my late 20s, dating my now husband. We decided to buy a house together before our apartment in San Diego cost as much as a freaking house. I remember, my husband says that he doesn't remember this, but like we were in the kitchen and our of our like 700 square foot apartment. And he goes, you know, so I guess we should like combine bank accounts. And I remember being so angry. And I said to him, I will never share a bank account with you. You will never control my money ever. Like you need to know that right now. And at the time, this this was like before grad school. Like I like maybe only a year, a year or two later, because I remember being in my new apartment that I owned with my husband, taking Christy's class, that like I put those two things together like that, you know. Like I the reason I and I did not know where that came from. Like in the moment, I was just so angry that he thought that he could control me, you know. How dare you? How dare he? And it did not, I did not fully understand like where that rage and fear came from so instantaneously until discovering this about my family history. And so there can be stuff like that where you're just like, I'm not sure where this comes from. And then you realize something and it's there. I don't expect financial advisors to, I mean, if you want to call up Christy and she'll tell you how to do it. But like, I don't, I don't expect you to like Christy, we are so sorry. Students or your clients, you know, on a message, on a mess path to like go interview their grandparents. But like you could, I guess. But there are things, I mean, I even think about I said not to ask about my 20s. Like, man, in my 20s, I had a good old time. Yeah. But probably not the most financially responsible time. Like, know that I also had this fear of like not having my own money. So that was traumatic. You know, so then finally having a real job and finally starting to work with my own financial advisor. I was, as much as I knew about money, I was really ashamed about like the situation and stuff that I was in. And even to this day, my financial advisor he thinks it's very funny that my husband and I do not share a bank account. He knows that story. Sure. And so he accepts it. He's probably the only one at any given time that can see all of our accounts because my husband's and eyes are separate.

SPEAKER_01 28:04

Oh, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 28:05

It's just one of those, like, I have to know that at any given time I can like cut and run to Mexico.

SPEAKER_01 28:10

And uh Yeah, I mean, or you can just come here to Augusta. Like that'd be cool. Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

I don't know if Clayton would like that. I feel like he would maybe go back.

SPEAKER_01 28:19

I think Clayton would probably I don't know what he would do.

SPEAKER_00 28:24

Actually, I think he would say, I'm gonna go live with Justin.

SPEAKER_01 28:26

He might actually, that actually probably would be. He'd be like, Yeah, y'all can have the house. I'll just go. Uh, which is all I actually care about. Like, so let's let's okay, joking. Okay, so we're talking about timing though, Meg. And like you're talking about kind of like when. All right, but like when should we not be asking about money history, right? Because if the flip side is like, hey, maybe here's like somewhere, like, yes, timing is important, and there are certain times maybe right that it can be helpful or certain moments, and and it's not all or nothing, right? There, it's not only as you were saying, which I'm glad you pointed out, it's not every time like a client is stuck that we should be going into that.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

Even only when they're stuck. Like you, you can sure that is one that like Neil Bage. If I've learned one thing from Neil Bage the Great, working at shaping wealth, is that humans are time travelers. I love it when he talks about in his British accent. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But he he's so that is the one thing that's super cool cool about being human is that you at any time you can go back and you can go forward. And so if someone is talking and they're really excited about whatever, you know, like ask them where that came from. You know, like it's at any time, it is okay to ask a question that pulls in something from the past and just say say.

SPEAKER_01 29:48

One of my favorite go-tos, not just like with clients or like when I was doing therapy, but even like with like my kids with Clayton, I tend to actually tell him where it comes from, and that doesn't actually do me really well. But that is one of my favorite go-to's is you know, something happens, a client says something, does right, and I will go, huh? Like, where does that come from? Like, just very genuine, like kind of can be like, oh, that's a big statement. Like, wow, that's a really powerful kind of thing. Positively, negatively, like, whatever, right? It might be, but like, where does that come from? And I think like kind of saying that way can show genuine like curiosity, and it's a way of like asking about money history without asking about, you know, saying, like, let me ask about your money history there. But if we're thinking about like, hey, when should we not be asking about money history? Because I do think that, and you and I have talked about this, like, I do think that there are some moments or even parts or places within the planning process that like it may not be so great. So share with me your thoughts there, what comes to mind for you when thinking about when not to ask about money history.

SPEAKER_00 30:58

So not to bring up less lonely money. Bring it up. But you should. It has become a thing. Like as financial therapy and the psychology of financial planning collide with traditional financial planning, which again, I'm excited about, but we are mixing some cultures. And one of the things that has become pretty popular, like I hear lots of advisors say that they ask this question or talk about this question in so many ways, is tell me about your earliest money memory, or what's your earliest money memory? Or, you know, tell me what life was like in your home as a child. I have no issue with this question. It is a great question in the sense that it is usually super interesting what people say. Absolutely. I do not think it is an appropriate question to ask within the first, let's say, three to 10 hours of knowing somebody, which if you're going through a traditional financial planning process, 10 hours were so don't ask it in intro, don't ask it in discovery, don't ask during plan presentation, we're gonna toss in a few monitoring meetings. Okay, you know, maybe after we've known this person for a year or two, you know, we we've helped them with whatever they came in with because that already has a lot of emotional charge to it. Then maybe we say, hey, we've been planning for a while, you know, we've got you on solid ground. You know, I wonder if we can take a look at this plan through a different lens. And one of the things that I would like to explore is just your relationship with money more broadly, going from some financial history to some financial future. And in that way, you have a solid relationship with this individual. You have established like that you have a healthy relationship and that you're safe and this is a safe place, and we can talk about that kind of stuff and that we do talk about money differently here. But within within those first few meetings, which is when I hear advisors are asking it, I don't think that that is the appropriate time. And I can go into great detail as to why I feel that way.

SPEAKER_01 33:02

So I would add on to that, like I hear you, and where what's coming up for me as I'm listening, I'm thinking about when I was deep in the throes of doing clinical work and my very first meeting with a new client or couple, right? When they would come in and that whole experience of coming in, you know, coming into my waiting room and then going into the office. Yes, I had a couch and it was really pretty, and there were tissues, all the stereotypical things. And I would, you know, sit down and you know, we exchanged, you know, maybe a few pleasantries, depending upon what their body language looked like, too. And you know, the first like objective was to just build rapport. And you know, I would know or have maybe a high-level idea of what they were coming in for. It could be anywhere on the spectrum of like basic communication all the way to like extensive trauma, either within the relationship between them or just individually, right? But my first kind of like interaction, the first hour, and I'm glad that you actually quantified it into hours and not just like, hey, within the first year, because I do think the actual clock hours time spent with someone does matter. And so, like those first like 53 minutes, that that's how long a clinical hour is, by the way, when you go to therapy, like uh 53 minutes, like it was built on like, you know, rapport building, like what can you expect from the relationship? It was not, and generally I would say our only objective today is to feel each other out, just kind of get to know each other and get used to what it's like to talk with one another. I know that you're coming in with stuff and I'm happy to get to that. If you want to get to that right now, like we can dive into the deep end, but that's not my like goal or objective today. I just want us to get to know each other. So I hear like I'm hearing what you're saying and I'm reflecting on just kind of my own intro, you know, meetings and then even through like the assessment, diagnostic, treatment, planning phase there too. Like, I mean, it wasn't until I spent a few hours with a person that then it was like, okay, now can we start to walk into the deep end together? And so I appreciate what you're saying and thinking about hours, right? Like making sure that the time you've spent with a client from a, you know, if we want to just say like clock hours standpoint, right, that you've built up kind of that equity there, that relational equity before you rip a band-aid and you're like, tell me about your earliest money memory. You have no idea what a client is gonna say. Maybe it was traumatic. And you know, I guess my thing is is that you know, it's different. I want to be careful how I say this. I think that, and I'm hoping that you're gonna validate me as soon as this comes out of my mouth. I think that it is different for someone like myself or you, a therapist who is trained in walking into the waters, the deep, the deepest of the deep ends, asking about maybe a client's money history, not knowing what's gonna be there, or even just any history. It's different for me than it is for an advisor who has no training because I know how to get us out. And I don't mean that like arrogantly, but like I know what to do, like once we get there. I know what to do in order to safely like bring a client to a place of stability if need be. Advisors unfortunately don't. So I'm gonna pause because we're talking about when not to kind of ask about money history and kind of those first like kind of clock hours. And then I very, very just kind of boldly said, if you can't walk into the waters, you don't have the skills, you shouldn't be going there. What are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 36:50

I will 100% validate you. I think that that's the hardest part. And I will still tell you, it still shocks me sometimes. You know, I've I've worked with clients. I teach this every year at Kansas State, at Columbia, at Maryland, like, and every year there'll be a student that says something, or there'll be a client that says something that I have not heard before, and it gets right to your heart and it will stop your breath. Like there is always just something, and you're right, you and I have gotten training in that space. Advisors, I mean, you guys go through the CFP, which is super important, but at no point in time, you know, do they A, it's a particular type of training, you know. Like when you are going through clinical training, you know, you are working with people, you are being watched, you know, you are then receiving feedback after that. You are watching yourself, you know, do these things and you know, practice these things. You are learning specific therapeutic techniques. None of that exists, you know, in getting the CFP. None of that exists even in getting a map, like a undergraduate in psychology or an undergraduate in counseling. This is master's level, at least, within therapeutic, social work, counseling, training. And I will even say for myself, my background is in industrial organizational psychology. It's not even in therapy. So I've had to get additional training in those spaces to be able to feel comfortable doing that work. It takes real practice, clock hours. Yeah. Clocked hours, real feedback. And this is this is for you, let alone the client. You know, like again, if they are there for financial planning. And cool, maybe your firm is super awesome and you happen to work with Beyond the Plan. And so maybe you talk about the fact that financial therapy is a thing and you know, that they can talk about different stuff and we're gonna ask different types of questions. It's still the day that you I mean, I I actually write about it in my uh upcoming article. I mean, I was in class, we were in class, and we were talking, and one of the students, very brave student, you know, decided to share with us uh about his money history. And I will never forget, not because I wasn't prepared, but because looking around the Zoom room and seeing all my other students' faces, they were not prepared. And these are master's level students, they've been doing this for a while. This is not necessarily like their first rodeo in terms of like hearing about financial therapy. And this student shares that they grew up in a home that had food scarcity. I believe it was their dad who had passed or divorced, like something happened. Dad was not there, mom could not keep up, and so they were homeless for a little while and living, you know, bounced around on couches, friends' house, things like this. And the student said, you know, mostly from that time, I just remember being hungry. That room was silent. There was just a lot of people in the room and nobody knew what to say. When you ask a question like that, you know, you have to be ready for some pretty intense answers. And it can't just be like, oh, you know, you go to tears. And so this is preparing for you, you know, as the as the advisor, but this is also preparing for the safety of this client.

SPEAKER_01 40:14

Yeah. Such a good point. So, okay, I don't want to freak people out here are listening. What I don't want to do is I don't want for advisors listening to this to go, okay, Meg and Ashley have now freaked me the out, and I'm never gonna touch like this again. I don't, I don't believe that is what we are saying. I believe what we are saying is is here are the things to keep in mind.

SPEAKER_00 40:41

Yeah, let's not ask that type of question early.

SPEAKER_01 40:44

Correct. Correct. Or it doesn't have to even be explicitly tell me about your money history. So maybe let's talk a little bit about, let's give some hope. Oh my gosh, let's like, let's like lift, lift them uh, you know, up a little bit here. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:04

Gotcha here.

SPEAKER_01 41:06

Gotcha in the trenches. Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about if an advisor wants to ask about money history, how can they do that? I know we've talked, we've mentioned here just like a few kind of different ways, right? Like, you know, I said, like, hey, where does that come from? Right. But maybe what are some less obvious? It doesn't have to be so over, so you know, kind of obvious ways that advisors can ask about money history. How can they do that?

SPEAKER_00 41:35

So one of my favorite ones, because usually people tell a funny story, is tell me about your first job. Every everybody has a wack-a-doo first job or they like they think about it and they think like how ridiculous. The follow-up to that, like not only will they tell you a funny story and or a story, you know, about their life, probably through that story, you will get an indication of what their home life was like. A great follow-up question to that is why did you get that job? If they say, because they will, oh well, you know, things were tight. I just wanted to help out. Okay, now you know. If they say, I wanted a new pair of Nikes and my mom said, shove it, okay, now, you know, then now we know something different. If they say, because, you know, I just wanted something of my own, that's interesting. Like, yeah, there's some meaning there. The first job, I guess this kind of relates to why some of that early money memory stuff is really scary. If you're gonna ask money memory questions and you want to ask them early, ask them when people had can about time when we had control. Like when you asked me about when I was five, you know, again, my student only remembered being hungry, but they didn't, they couldn't work, you know, they they couldn't save anything. You know, like the their world, they were completely at the will of their world. They were a child. And so when we ask people about a time in their life where they were completely helpless, and yet the whole goal of financial planning is typically to get people to feel like they can do stuff. We want to encourage these ideas of self-efficacy, feel empowered and have agency.

SPEAKER_01 43:06

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:07

Let's ask questions that related to money history, but that inspire that. You know, that so that first job, like, did they get it because their mom made them? Did they get it because they wanted to help? Were they trying to buy the Nike? Whatever, you know, like this is usually a funny answer, and and it will give you some indication of early life. I let I love that one. Yeah. Another one that I like that's the same vein of like empowerment and stuff is you know, when did you start to feel like there was money that was yours to manage? You know, many people will talk about again a first job, but it may not be like like my first job was sweeping hair at a hair salon.

SPEAKER_01 43:46

That's super specific.

SPEAKER_00 43:47

Did you do anything else other than sweeping hair? I'm sorry, like I kind of have to ask. And so I had to have a job because I bought a car. And my mom was like, If you're gonna have this car, you have to you have to have gas money. Like they had to work. So I was like stupid. So um I worked so that I could basically put gas in my car because as you can imagine, I did not make a lot sweeping hair. But that was that was why I had my first job. But I don't think of that time as managing money. Like I actually have to go further forward in time to like my 20s when I was out of college, working, putting money now into my 401k for the first time, that sort of thing. And yeah, like I had an apartment. I still had a car, you know, like there were bills, unfortunately, and I had to pay them. And I was not great at managing money at that point in my life. Um, fun follow-up question. Do you enjoy managing it? Some people are like, yes, I love making budgets. Me, no, no. I like to spend it and never see the budget. Yes. That that is not my thing. Just anything. Like, what's a what's a decision that you remember? What's a financial decision you remember making on your own? Or what was the first financial decision you remember making on your own? Or, you know, when when you go to make or when you have made, you know, financial decisions in the past, what made you feel unsure? What made you feel confident? You know, and these are great to segue into, okay, well, we're gonna be working together. I I want to help you to feel more confident, you know, as as we fill out that picture of like the work that we're gonna be doing now, you know, what does that look like for you? You know, these are all related to money history. These are all probably questions that they are not expecting you to ask them. But they can totally help, especially like if if those early stage relationships, you're really trying to figure out how to work together, you know, what's the value here? Learn learn a little bit about, you know, the way that they think about money and stuff like that. And and and now you've also kind of established that asking about stuff like that is not weird. And we can build up to asking about, you know, like a family history, like what happened two generations ago, or even, you know, what was it like when you were young? You know, what do you remember? Again, I I love that question. I think that there are so many interesting things that can come from that. My my first one was at church, getting the little angels off the tree during Christmas time. Mom would always have us pick one that was like the same as us. So I I would pick like a girl that was my age, and then we go to the store and you know, get the things and put them in a box, and like giving presents is a big thing in my family. And so it was like super fun. You know, mine mine was not uh traumatic, but like that that's I still see that in my life today.

SPEAKER_01 46:40

Like I you're a great, yes, yes, super great gift giver, as yes. You can attest. I can I can attest. Yeah, mine was stealing lipstick from the grocery store and then having to go back uh and learning that you have to pay for things with money, right? So um, I don't know if I would say traumatic, but uh certainly like the idea of consequences, you know, there. So okay, I so like this how can advisors ask about money history, like you've offered shockingly, to no surprise to myself or probably most that know you, fantastic questions around how to do it. Here's something that's also, you know, if maybe you're not quite sure about just kind of going in and asking, you know, just kind of a question. And there's a few ways to kind of do this. One, I think naturally, keeping in mind clients naturally in conversation will bring up nuggets, just little like kind of nuggets about their history. And what you can do is maybe within your CRM, like your notes, create a template for each client that has like family money dynamics, childhood, teenage, like early adulthood. Like these are headers, right? And throughout just kind of your relationship, the interactions, like if a client just kind of mentions, like, yeah, well, my dad was always cheap. Well, like you don't necessarily have to follow up on that. Like there's not a pressure, there's nothing to say, like you have to follow up with that. What you can maybe just start is like noticing and becoming aware of where those nuggets are. Put it then in that little note section around like family dynamics. Like dad was cheap AF, right? And so, you know, as you're going through just kind of the relationship, you're almost building out like this living, you know, kind of profile here for a client's money history. So, you know, I would say like if you're not quite so comfortable, like just directly ask, maybe just start with paying attention to where clients are mentioning history nuggets. Find some way to maybe document it and it be just kind of a living document that can be updated. The other piece too is that when clients do bring up little history nuggets, it's okay to just like say, oh, I didn't really know that about you. Like, could you share maybe? Would you mind just sharing maybe a little bit more about that like first like job or dad being cheap AF or you know, meeting with another client, a an advisor's client the other week? A woman uh talked about her, you know, kind of her divorce. She mentioned being being like a single and like the advisor wasn't quite sure if she had always been single or if she was divorced or if like the husband passed, like just was not quite sure of the context to like the history of like the relationship. And so she was talking a little bit about that. And I just kind of said, Hey, like, would you I I was a little confused and I don't do well being confused. And so I just would you mind like when you're talking about, you know, kind of your previous partner, like was it a marriage? Like, was it, you know, did you divorce? Like, did they pass like I know this is really personal. Like, would you could I just I want to understand a little bit better? Clients usually are like, oh, yeah, and she was like, Oh, yeah, like we divorced like 10 years ago, we were together like 20 years, and you know, it was actually really hard because it was the first time I had to manage money by myself. And, you know, I really struggled with like knowing how to do that. Whoof, like that's a lot of context, you know, there. So there might be just some natural ways, like if clients are bringing up history to ask like just kind of some follow-up questions there without coming out the gate, you know, and and saying, even like, you know, tell me about your first job or tell me about what your 20s were like managing money. So, you know, if you're on the fence not feeling so comfortable, I think that there's some other ways there that you can capture that history piece.

SPEAKER_00 50:40

Yeah. And I I I want to double click on what you did, because you do this very well and it's brilliant, is is one to state the obvious. Like you just said this. I realize it could be kind of personal. Would you mind sharing that? So you stated what they said, you acknowledge that it could be a little weird, maybe you're feeling a little weird, whatever. And then you just said, would you mind? But you all as the advisor, please also know this person's already talking about it. We're we're not saying, hey, let's pull black box time, you know, let's go. Like we're we're we're commenting on something they have already started to share. And we've asked with permission, you know, for for a little bit more context. That is a wonderful, like three-step, hey, you just said this. Could be could be a little bit personal. I get it. We're just getting to know each other. Would you mind? You know, like that. Ashley does that all the time. It works every time. And it's not hard to do, but it is a great way to get people talking because they are there to talk and they are going to believe you that you know, that you believe that this is important, you know, context matters. So yeah, I just wanted to point out like exactly what you did as I as I heard it. If you were doing something else, please, please say so. Um, but like uh that is what I just explained.

SPEAKER_01 52:00

Yeah, it does, yeah. And that's some of the key here is that if you're maybe to kind of this, you know, kind of how to ask, however, it is that you decide to start to, you know, weave in money history, understanding money history around your client, make sure that you practice it first. Asking a question like, hey, like tell me about your first job at the gate. That might sound like, I can ask that. Like, that's so simple. And yes, right. It it might be. I also think that it is helpful to practice saying some of these things in a particular way, paying attention to your tone, like your facial, and like those things do take practice. And so, however, if you decide to start to integrate uh financial or uh money history, like practice, practice some of these conversations before going in and doing it.

SPEAKER_00 52:57

I would think that quite a bit of the practice is um, you know, yeah, beyond just asking the first question, it's it's the follow-up. And even, you know, something that we haven't yet discussed, but we've but we've said, but maybe not been explicit about, is that um when you're asking somebody about their history, you are not there to connect the dots.

SPEAKER_01 53:16

Oh, yeah. Oh, oh now that is literally an entire other episode of like, yes, good point. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 53:24

And so, so, you know, when maybe maybe you do decide to ask, you know, tell me about your earliest money memory. Okay. And so they say whatever they're gonna say. You then do not say, oh, well, you're nervous about the stock market because yeah, your grandpa lost all this money. Like that, we're not doing that. Instead, instead, we need to say, you know, I'm really glad that you shared that. You know, that's really interesting. Tell me where this is now we're gonna play try and travel again. Like, tell me where you see that in your life today. Is that something you want to continue? How does that help? How does that not help? Like it is it is them. We want to know how this story that appeared in their brain, you know, has manifested in this time. You may have your own ideas about the weird things that they have done, the reason that they are stuck, and now this is what's coming up for them. That is not what's important. What's important is how they are putting together the puzzle, and that's what we want to be curious about. And so that to me, that's the the hardest part is staying, staying in their story, following their story without because you're the thoughts are gonna come. You're gonna be like, I can't believe they just said that. You know, like that is how did they not see this? You know, like you're gonna think those things, but you don't get to talk about that.

SPEAKER_01 54:41

And also if you've felt a pressure to, like, hey, like you don't have to, that doesn't, that's not your role. You don't you don't have to. Joy Leary, who I know you know very well, she came on episode 29, so just a few episodes prior to this, and talked about storytelling. So, you know, if you're listening and you know, what Meg is sharing right now around like just kind of the story and like the narrative and like connecting down, like if Joy had just some fantastic like just insights and like framework there. So go back and listen to um episode 29 with joy if you're interested, just in, you know, when clients share something, understanding the story and what you can do there to help. All right, Meg, as we wrap things up for this episode, what else about how to ask about a client's money history? Do you feel like is important for maybe advisors to know or like how to do? Like, sorry, I don't really want to say what haven't we discussed because that could lend itself to another hour, but at least for today, like top of mind, is there any other takeaways that you want to leave advisors with?

SPEAKER_00 55:53

If I gave you $100 as a kid, what would you have spent it on?

SPEAKER_01 55:57

Shoes and clothes. Same.

SPEAKER_00 56:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:01

In in debatable on which, like collaboration.

SPEAKER_00 56:05

Waist size less than.

SPEAKER_01 56:07

Yeah, my waist size has not. Shoe size, I've been a size six since um sixth grade. Uh, and so that's been fantastic um over the years. My collaboration gift to my to my to myself was a new pair of shoes.

SPEAKER_00 56:20

Gotta walk into the new life, new collaborative life.

SPEAKER_01 56:23

I did. I think that's a great question, though.

SPEAKER_00 56:25

I I don't. We we've talked about when to bring it up, how to bring it up. We've talked about the importance of just expectations. Like it's okay it's okay to say, especially in that first hour of meeting somebody, hey, we talk about money differently. I want to understand, you know, not only where you're at today, but like what informed that. We will eventually get to a place where I'm asking you things about, you know, past time. So we've talked about the importance of expectation. We've talked about just different types of questions and how you can still get into money history. We've talked about different techniques for getting into money history, and or even when the client is essentially sharing money history with us and we want to sort of double tap on that, like how to go a little bit deeper without necessarily being intrusive. I guess the last thing for me that just jumps out is like if you're gonna ask about this stuff, then make sure it shows up in the plan. If you're gonna be presenting the plan, if you're gonna be talking about a goal, you know, don't not that people would just ask it willy-nilly, but I feel like, you know, in in the many clients and many advisors I've worked with, we're asking like hundreds of questions in discovery. And then, you know, only certain ones are showing up in the plan. And family history is important and it can show up in lots of different ways. And so even just as a part of your discussion, like maybe you're presenting something and you say, you know, I remember when we were talking about, you know, back in the day when you would go to the beach with your family, like that was such a cool memory, you know, that stayed with you. And so as we are thinking, you know, about your legacy and like what it's like, if you're gonna ask that stuff, like please use it. Yeah, use it in your conversations with them because it makes it feel personalized. I mean, there are there are business benefits to doing this. Um, but then also it doesn't, you know, what is the point of sharing some of this really personal stuff if if it's just being like, you know, put inside of Pandora's box and like or like Johnny, what's that guy? Like he was a sailor and they like goes down in the deep.

SPEAKER_01 58:25

I don't know what cartoons did you watch?

SPEAKER_00 58:27

This was like Pirates of the Caribbean.

SPEAKER_01 58:29

Oh, I didn't watch that. I didn't watch that. Yeah, Johnny Johnny Walker?

SPEAKER_00 58:32

No, that's alcoholically. Johnny Depp? No, Johnny Walker.

SPEAKER_01 58:36

Now I do know Johnny Walker and Jim Bean. Yeah, we're friends.

SPEAKER_00 58:41

I don't remember what is what it is, but anyway, there's a heart, it goes down to the ocean, something like some locker. I don't know. Anyway, that we don't want that, don't do that. So we have to we want to keep the stories alive. If they share them with you, share them back, you know, demonstrate that you were listening.

SPEAKER_01 58:58

Yeah, we I I kind of touched on it, but like a documentation process for money, money history. And so, you know, I shared at least one way, creating some headers maybe within your notes section to do that. But I love that you brought that up, right? Just kind of as a hey, like if we're gonna ask about it, let's also make sure that it shows up and that we're remembering there's a lot, um, a lot of reasons why. And so if you don't have a documentation process for that, consider looking at just how can we capture that in a way to where the information we make sure that it stays relevant. I know you love relevancy, right? Relevant, relevant to the relationship, not just now, but also in the future there. The last thing I would say is that if you are looking for a tool, people love tool, if you're looking for an exercise, if you email me, Ashley, at beyondthefp.com, and if you comment money history tool in the subject line, I will send you my family financial pattern matrix, which captures three generations of money history, beliefs, impact, just some good things there. And it's a great exercise. You don't have to do it with your clients. You can actually just give it to them and have them go do it on their on their own there too. So if you're interested in that visual, uh shoot me an email, make sure the subject line says money history tool there, and we will shoot that over to you. All right, Meg, this has been a great conversation and sadly it has to come to an end for at least, at least today. You and I will be go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:45

But then also send us another suggestion. If you want us to talk about something else, Johnny Walker's on the table. So please, please, you know, add some submissions and we will think of other smart things to talk about.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:57

Yeah, I I love that because I uh you and I can think of smart things to talk about, but it may not be the things that are helpful for you. So um, you know, really the purpose kind of here of planning and beyond the podcast and and beyond the plan, the work that just you and I do, just high level, is really to make sure that whatever it is that we're putting out, that it's helpful for you. So yeah, I love that. Shoot us some suggestions there too, so that we can jump on and have an excuse to record other other stuff uh here. So with that, I will say thank you. Thank you for allowing Meg and I into your ears and into your mind today from wherever it is that you are listening to. Be sure to follow us both. We've uh kind of listed out some things. We'll make sure that links are included in the show notes there where you can follow us. Um, Meg's work, Less Lonely Money. You can follow Beyond the Plan, uh, both of us individually on LinkedIn, which is where we primarily uh hang out, primarily like to hang out. Uh and drop us a line, let us know what's interesting, what's interesting to you and what you want to hear more of. And until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going beyond. Thanks for joining me on this episode of Planning and Beyond. I hope you found today's insights valuable and inspiring for both your practice and your personal growth. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. Your feedback helps us reach more advisors like you who are dedicated to making a difference. For more resources, tips, and to continue the conversation, visit our website at beyondthefp.com. You'll find articles, tools, and information about upcoming episodes designed to support your journey and practice. Stay connected with us on social media and never miss an update. Follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn. And remember, the best way to grow is to keep learning and sharing. Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going beyond.