SPEAKER_00 0:01

I think you talk about helping a client create a story. The reality is the story is already there. It's creating the conditions and creating an invitation and kind of the safety and permission for someone to share what they've already experienced with you.

SPEAKER_01 0:22

Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the show where financial planning meets human understanding. As an exceptional financial advisor, you know that financial planning is about more than just numbers. It's about giving clients the clarity they need to align their money with what matters most, which is why each episode is designed with that goal in mind. You'll learn how to uncover the psychology behind client decisions and gain insights and behavioral strategies needed to create deeper, more meaningful client relationships. You'll discover techniques for navigating emotional client situations drawn from conversations with leading industry experts in behavioral finance, psychology, communication, and more. Whether it's mastering discovery meetings, handling sensitive client conversations, or understanding what is truly keeping your client stuck, you'll walk away with not only strategies that you can use in your next client meeting, but also the confidence to do so. Oh yeah, hi. I should probably introduce myself. I'm your host, Ashley Kwame, a therapist who somehow wandered into the world of financial behavior and kind of decided to stay. My mission is to help you bridge the gap between financial planning and human understanding. Because remember, finances don't have feelings, but your clients do. Let's dive in. Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the podcast where financial planning meets human understanding. I'm your host, Ashley Kwame. Today I am fangirling all over the place because I have with me Dr. Joy Leary, who co-founder of Shaping Wealth. If any of you are not familiar with her work, then you should definitely start to become familiar with her and her work because she's fantastic and selfishly wanted to bring her on so that I could meet her. That's the benefit of having a podcast, right? But also to share in and some of her wisdom and her insight. In particular today, what we're gonna be exploring and talking about is storytelling. Now, you might be hearing me say that and think, what does that have to do with financial planning? And we're gonna get into how that is relevant for financial planning and why you should be doing a little bit more of it with your clients. But before we do, let's welcome Joy to the show. Joy, thank you so much for coming on and being here.

SPEAKER_00 2:52

Thank you so much, Ashley.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

It is a pleasure to join you. Awesome. Well, let's just get right into it and dive deep. Co-founder of Shaping Wealth, clinical psychologist. Anything else there that I'm just missing around maybe the perspective that you're coming from, your background education that has come to just inform some of the work that you do.

SPEAKER_00 3:14

No, those two things capture it. I like all of us, I hold multiple roles in my life as a mom, a spouse, a friend, a sister. And I'm a car-carrying member of the human race alongside all of you.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

I love that. That's such a perfect way to describe that. That is fantastic. Well, you have been talking a lot more recently about storytelling and the work that you do with shaping wealth and what have you. And I've become very interested in it, obviously as a therapist, but also seeing how valuable it is to craft a money narrative and not just craft it, but to understand its influence. And so I want to get into that today with you because you have such a wonderful way of explaining it and talking about storytelling and the relevancy within financial planning. So you have shared, right, that we are not born as calculators, but as storytellers. What a wonderful quote. Can you maybe just unpack a little bit more about what this means and how it's relevant to financial planning?

SPEAKER_00 4:22

Well, as we move through our lives and make decisions, we aren't doing that with the calculator. We are doing that with our words. We are living stories. Every client who comes into your office, there have been a series of events that have led up to the here and now of their coming in and talking to you. We are all continuing to live a story. So really understanding and appreciating that. We connect through stories, not just facts and logic. So understanding how do you create the conditions so someone is going to give you the context so that you can better appreciate where they are right now, why they're coming to you.

SPEAKER_01 5:01

Okay. So I mean, that makes sense, right? To me. We connect through story. I know from my own perspective and even personally, but also professionally as well. How we remember things, how we make meaning, how we make change. Like those stories can be really just powerful and impactful. Can you maybe just give some insight to like what happens kind of inside of our head? Like, why is story? Like, how does that work with inside of our brains, within of our minds? Why is story maybe a little bit more impactful than seeing all of the numbers on a spreadsheet?

SPEAKER_00 5:40

Well, story is our kind of our decoder ring for reality. We see something and we have to make sense of it. So, story is how our brain organizes it. And it's really interesting because as I talk to people about the power of story, I think about some of the work I do with clients who've experienced trauma. When someone goes through trauma, the brain, the brain does miraculous, amazing things to try and protect us. So sometimes parts of our memory get shut down. So sometimes if someone is coming in and sharing with me a very difficult event that they have experienced and how they've made sense of it, there's not a coherent flow. It's kind of fragmented and splintered. And to me, that lack of cohesion and coherence is a sign of what's going on. So part of the healing that can happen is okay, let's construct a narrative. Let's look at this. So that's just one of the ways that I see and understand like story is how we make sense of things.

SPEAKER_01 6:41

Yeah. And I can imagine, right, when it comes to crafting a financial plan, that is a story maybe through numbers, right? And so, you know, advisors aren't trained in helping clients create stories from a narrative, right? Maybe from a numbers right place. So just in some of your work, how have you maybe seen story within the financial planning landscape? How have you seen that transform just maybe the advisor-client relationship, maybe just the client's own outcomes? What have you seen transformation-wise when we help clients with those stories and meaning making?

SPEAKER_00 7:23

Absolutely. I think you talk about helping a client create a story. The reality is the story is already there. It's creating the conditions and creating an invitation and kind of the safety and permission for someone to share what they've already experienced with you.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

I love that. I like wanting to sit with it. Story's already there, right? But how can we, as maybe I'm understanding you, right? Like as the practitioner on the practitioner side, like how can we give room and space for that story, right, to come about, to come to the surface, right? In a in a way that there's coherence and it makes makes sense, right? Those connections, right? Maybe there. Like talking about then if the story is already there, the money life narrative, right, is already there. How might you go about helping clients to bring that to the surface? What are things that you think are important when it comes to uncovering and connecting to that money narrative?

SPEAKER_00 8:29

Well, I think one of the most powerful tools we have are our questions. So there's a skill to drawing out someone with their story. So, what are some of the prompts that you are asking? You know, when did you first become aware of money? What you're want trying to do when you're sitting with a client is scaffold client self-awareness so that they step start to step back, self-reflect, huh? What is it? What are the things that have been set into motion that lead me to doing what I'm doing now?

SPEAKER_02 9:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:01

Because what we constantly want to be holding when it comes to money stories is past, present, future, past, present, future. We need to understand the past to understand how we're showing up and doing the things we are doing, if they're serving us or not today. Because all of us, as we are moving through the day, the decisions we are making, the reactions we're having to our boss, everything, there's a root in that that was old. And this the stronger the behavior, the stronger the reaction, probably the more historic it is. So understanding and examining that. And of course, some of you are maybe thinking, well, she's a shrink, a poor, okay.

SPEAKER_01 9:41

We're just a bunch of therapists, Joy. We're just we're two clinicians here, like, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:46

Because it's true. But we don't have to be stuck admired in our past, but we have to examine it and look at it so that we have the freedoms to step back and appreciate, oh, that's maybe why I do the what some of what I do. Is this serving me? Or has have I maybe outgrown something that used to be very adaptive? You know, I think sometimes people will look at their current financial state or their current behaviors and I'll be like, oh, make all these mistakes. And the finance industry has done a real juicy with, well, everyone is biased. So then spending this, setting this narrative of, okay, advisors, you need to diagnose and treat your clients' biases. No, our blame, our brains are glitchy. They are wired not for our current environment where we are trying to not only survive but thrive. But every every feature our brain has, it's designed to protect us and keep us alive and keep us connected to people. But sometimes our brain doesn't hit refresh the way it needs to, and that creates problems. So that link from past to present is really important because ultimately, with an advisor, what you are doing is helping, you're serving as a ghostwriter, and you want your client to really take authorship and agency. You want to inspire hope, inspire confidence so that they can think about okay, what is this financial future you want to create for yourself? How can you go out and do the things you need to do in order to achieve that?

SPEAKER_01 11:22

I love, yeah, I'm like, keep going, like get on that like soapbox and like keep going, Joy. I'm like here for it, like cheering right you on internally, right? And now outwardly. There's so much power in looking at a person across a spectrum, not just the here and now, right? And so I know that when I, you know, was practicing clinically more heavily, and even presently, like now, there's this framework that I would constantly be kind of working through intuitively, but sometimes strategically too, right? What's the history? What's the vision? What's the reality? And then what's the plan, right? History, vision, reality plan. And that those would be the words like I would scribble out, right? In in conjunction with, you know, something that I say often, which is think, feel, do. So why are they thinking the way they do? What are the thoughts, right? Very cognitive, behavioral, emotionally coming out of, you know, emotionally focused therapy. So as two clinicians, I have to be mindful that our listeners are not clinicians and they're probably like, whoa, look at these two girls, just like roll, roll with it. Okay. I would imagine that some people who are listening right now are like, this makes sense. It makes a lot of sense. And what are those questions that like help me to kind of do some of that? Right. You mentioned earlier, like questions really are that tool that we can lean on for drawing out that narrative there. So if an advisor was listening right now and they're like, okay, Joy, how do I ask those things? Like, and maybe how do I ask it without coming across or trying to appear as though I am a therapist? How what are some of those questions that maybe you lean on or coach advisors on using? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 13:12

I think it's important to, for an advisor, like you can explicitly say, you maybe had an expectation we were coming in here just talking about the numbers. But money is a human experience, not just a math equation. This is not just about the numbers. There's a story behind the numbers. So to really get your numbers to work for you, I want to understand your story. Oh, I love that. Yeah. Yeah. And then let's keep writing the story you want that's going to drive those numbers. So I think what an advisor needs to really do is just go in with a real air of curiosity. Explore with your client what is it that keeps you up at night? What are questions you have that you wonder, can I even ask this? I think an important thing for advisors to keep in mind is there's a statistic that 64% of people with an advisor would say they don't have anyone to talk to about their money. Why are they saying that? They're saying that because they're going in and they're maybe just talking about the spreadsheet. They're not talking about the human experience behind what's going on.

SPEAKER_01 14:23

Yeah, which I would, you know, I know from just experience in my own work, also being a wife to a CFP, there's this like experience of like overwhelm sometimes around, I don't know or haven't learned like how to do that. And like that sounds great. And I find that sometimes advisors can get a little bit more in their head, right, with the worry, but also wanting to be an appear professional, right? To makes total sense. That's an act of care and love, right? I understand that you have for your clients. Now, you talk about in some of your trainings this framework that you use, the read, write, edit, right? When it comes to crafting like a money life narrative. Can you maybe talk a little bit about what does that framework mean? What's behind all of that?

SPEAKER_00 15:15

Well, at Shaping Welcome, when we are, we do specific training on the skill of storytelling because we really believe this is one of your superpowers. So, and there are different components to this. There are, there's understanding the power of story. So that's kind of the reading, appreciating that all of our lives, the the movies we are drawn to, the books that we are drawn to, like there's an arc to this. Understanding the hero's journey. Where do you fit in that? Where does your client fit in that? So we start with really some background of why are we even talking about this? So that's kind of the read. And then the right. And I think this is very, very important. You know, you ask, how do we help advisors have these conversations? I do an exercise with advisors when I lead them through their own money story exercise. And I can't tell you over the hundreds, maybe thousands of advisors I've now done this with, how many of them are like, nope, I have these conversations day after day after day with my clients, but I've never actually done this myself. Uh, empathy with your client, the prerequisite of that is starting with self-awareness. So understanding, oh, in my own life, what I lived early on, that really shaped and influenced some of the beliefs, some of the attitudes, some of the habits I formed today. And even being asked to reflect on that can be an emotional thing. So then, with that appreciation of, oh, this is a vulnerable topic, you can then treat that conversation with your client with even more reverence and care. Because another thing with the training and provide with advisors, it's important. Brene Brown has done some really nice work about this idea of story stewardship. And she talks about narrative takeover when clients or or someone in our life is sharing with us, and then often well-intentioned, we jump in and we share something that, oh, I went through something similar. So then suddenly the spotlight is on that other person to us. And then she also talks about narrative takeover, narrative tap out. We get uncomfortable, we fear saying the wrong thing, we're like, this sounds too much like therapy. I'm just gonna freeze, can't wait for this conversation to be over. So then we we just kind of pull back and leave someone alone in their story. So part of the work of an advisor is also learning how to steward stories. So we have the read, write, do some of your own work, and then the edit. And that's where we really get into kind of the future, looking at what's going on now. What are the stories we tell ourselves, and where do we need to do some editing? Because here's the thing, and this isn't just about clients, it's not just about money stories. This is about all of us every day as we move through the day. Something I'm working on with my kids. The stories we tell ourselves are so, so powerful. And they create a whole cascade of feelings that can lead to actions and decisions. And sometimes our stories aren't grounded, you know, you talked about what is the reality, they aren't grounded in reality or we haven't checked them out. So then we create a whole lot of unnecessary suffering. So we need to learn how to step back, say the story I'm telling myself is, hmm, do I have any evidence that that could be wrong? If I reframe this of, oh, that just happened to me. To hmm, what might have been going on for that person that they needed to act to act that way? You know, if we can do some editing to depersonalize, or rather than that happened to me, okay, I'm gonna trust that happened for me in some way, and I'm going to figure out how. Little edits like that, you know. My kid is like, oh, it's such a bad day. Like there are bad moments in all of our days. It's two o'clock. Let's not decide this day is lost.

SPEAKER_01 19:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:13

Let's create the next good thing and choose where we are anchoring our focus.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

Yeah, I'm hearing like so many just great moments there for an advisor to take, to take some of those questions, those reflections, right? And utilize them in meetings, right? What is the story you're telling yourself? So when a client says, I'm bad with money, like I'm just really bad with money, like, okay, tell me more. Like, what is the story you're telling yourself, right? There. And through all of that editing aspect of it, can we distill that a little bit more? And are we, you know, speaking in absolutes, like I'm always bad with like what are maybe can we tease out those moments where maybe, as you kind of talked about, right? In the parenting example, like there's probably some moments where you're not bad, right? And I love just that framework, right? Of editing and how and where advisors can maybe show up to do some of that. Now, one of the questions that I get asked, and I, you know, don't want to assume, but you may get asked this too, is when it comes to these approaches, we'll take storytelling. I will have advisors sometimes ask, like, well, where does this fit into the process? When should I ask about this? Like, where does this go? Do I have to ask them every single conversation like about this? Like, and I appreciate like so much those questions. And I laugh sometimes because I'm like, I understand my husband now so much better. Like, okay, like I can understand this. But I'm curious, like when it comes to storytelling and the all three of those aspects of creating that money narrative, like, how would you answer that in terms of where does it fit, maybe in the process of the client relationship?

SPEAKER_00 21:00

Well, I have two thoughts about that. One is this this storytelling is not a bolt-on. I want you to start thinking about storytelling is something you relationally do constantly. It shouldn't be something you switch on and off. Think about outside of work or even when you're conversing with your colleagues. Often there's an exchange of stories. We're getting to know what's happening with someone, and it lives in these rich anecdote moments of connection. So always think about I'm getting to know someone's story. We're going to have an exchange of stories, specifically of someone's money story. Now, because that is maybe more of maybe those are things someone hasn't thought about, they haven't talked about. When a prospect calls you, you don't have to ask them, what was your mom like with her money? That feels stilted. So we don't have to go. Sometimes I think advisors and they're like, oh, this sounds great, this is important. They go too deep, too soon, too fast. Whenever we are going to Entrust our story to someone, there needs to be a platform of trust built in our relationship before we're going to show all of our cards. Like that is the sign of emotional and relational health that I'm just not just indiscriminately telling a stranger the first time I meet them every juicy detail about my life. So the answer is always, but also not too fast, not too soon. But in that, both of those answers, both of those things being true, is think more just I'm having a conversation and getting to know someone. Are there stories I can tell that are that are going to illuminate some concepts where I'm, you know, think about experiences you've had as a student. I think the things that are stickiest for us were trans get someone gave them to us packaged in a story. So think about that as you're educating your client. But in terms of drawing them out about theirs, let that unfold over time. It doesn't have to be everything immediately.

SPEAKER_01 23:04

Yes, like a resounding yes to all of that. And I guess I will validate just that it is sticky and kind of tricky, right? Because a client might share or make a comment, right? And I'll just go with this comment of like, I'm bad with money, right? And if you're learning about, you know, whether it's improving your own emotional intelligence, your conversational skills, like building trust, equity, like storytelling, right? Like there's a vigilance, like a level of vigilance. I know that when we're learning new things, like we're paying attention. And so there can be a temptation of like, oh, oh, you said I'm bad with money. And let's just go super deep, like right now in this moment. But what I'm hearing you kind of say is that maybe there's a level of discernment right there. Like, can I dip my toes in around that comment? Am I getting that right?

SPEAKER_00 23:51

Absolutely. And there are things you can make a mental note. Like I do this as a clinician, someone will share something. I'm like, there's something there. Maybe we have five minutes left. This is not the time or the praise place, nor am I sure that am I assessing maybe you're not ready to go there, but I'm gonna put a pin in that. And sometimes I will say out loud, hmm, there is something to what you just said. I want to make sure that we come back to that, you know, that our conversations, our relationships with people, this is not just a freight train and we don't get chances to circle back. We can always circle back.

SPEAKER_01 24:23

Oh, yeah, I appreciate you saying that because it's so true. But I also understand, like in the moment, sometimes there's that feeling of like, ah, right?

SPEAKER_00 24:33

Right. Yeah. Never it is not now or never. And that's a beautiful example. Oh, I'm bad with money. Start with curiosity. Sometimes I think someone would want to be like, oh no, you're not, no, you're not. No, sit with that. You don't have to take that away. You don't have to edit it for them in that moment. But can you help me understand? Like, that's an interesting statement. Can you help me understand that? What does it mean to you to be bad with money? And that, those two a couple of prompts are going to give you a rich story because that is rooted in something and you want to understand why.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:09

And then you use questions to kind of peel back the layers. But in that moment, you know, you also need to be able to have the skills to monitor does that person, are they ready, willing, or wanting to go there? So we want to honor that. In our conversations, we are giving invitations, we are not conducting an interrogation. So sometimes with our questions, we want to put it out there, but we also can give explicit permission. I'm gonna ask this, you may or may not have an answer, and you may or may not feel like sharing, but it is something I'm curious about, X, Y, and Z. But give them, also give them, especially if it's something a little bit that could be a little bit more uncomfortable. You can give them an exit ramp. Always we really try and do this in our programming where we have advisors do a lot of self-reflection and then we're processing as a group. Like you are it take care of yourself in terms of self-disclosure. I'm gonna ask a bunch of questions. Hopefully, you will ask them of yourselves. It is entirely up to you what you share with me, what you share with anyone else.

SPEAKER_01 26:17

Yeah, that permission is so important just in building that, building that relationship aspect too. So I love that you highlighted that. Now I'm curious, would love to know how you approach this when when you're coaching advisors. Sometimes I will have advisors share, like, okay, Ashley, like I got into the story. Oh crap, I got too deep and I didn't know what to do. And so then I just quickly changed to like numbers because that's where I'm comfortable. How might you, if an advisor is worried about getting in too deep and then not having or knowing how to like work their way out of that, especially around, you know, just story and vulnerability. How, what would you say? What would you offer there for how advisors can can get out, get themselves and the client out of those moments?

SPEAKER_00 27:12

I think advisors need to definitely build some self-trust in those moments. I think sometimes we go to this place of what is the right and wrong thing to say? Even if you're asking yourself that question, that is a sign that in that moment, maybe the most powerful thing is your presence. In that moment, validating, wow, that sounds like a really, really difficult thing. Thank you for sharing that with me. So just kind of honoring whatever the disclosure was without feeling like you then have to do something with it is really important.

SPEAKER_01 27:49

Yeah, absolutely. I will find, and I've had this even clinically as like a trick, I'll just call it that, right? But I find that if I need some time because a client has just shared something that I don't know what to do with, right? Or where to maybe go. Like I will, as you just said, use validation and slow things down to kind of one, sometimes it's to give myself some space to regulate it for the like oh crap feeling to like, you know, set aside, but also just as a way to kind of connect and you know, allow some space in case maybe they want to say something, say something else. Now I do this, I don't know how what your experience is, but sometimes I might ask permission. Like, would it be you've just shared a whole lot? Would it be okay if we could maybe switch gears? Do you need to switch gears to something lighter? I don't know. What would maybe your thoughts be about if an advisor is like, well, is it okay? Because part of it is I do have to get to numbers. Like, that's why they hire me. So, what might you offer there just around when and how to draw, go back to the numbers?

SPEAKER_00 29:05

Yeah, I really like that checking in with the client in terms of I appreciate you sharing that with me. Like, what was that? What was that like sharing what you did? I am aware that we all we also have this on the agenda today. How would it feel right now if we kind of switched gears a little bit? Just to check it, yes, kind of narrating that your navigation of the conversation with them so that they can feel like they have some power and control as well is really useful.

SPEAKER_01 29:38

Yeah, I love that. The power, right? Giving the client power control, but also ourselves, maybe a little bit of that too, of like we don't have to just stay here in the trenches.

SPEAKER_00 29:49

Yeah, you don't have to follow. It makes me think of one of my first years of grad school. I had a supervisor, and I would bring in my transcripts, I would go through my transcripts and my therapy cases, and I was working with this girl. My supervisor would be like, like, she's all she's in the weeds, and you're just with her in the weeds, Joy. Like part of your, like, you can't just stay in the weeds with her. So, so yes, understanding that sometimes it is caring not to just follow someone, especially if they're in a really deep, raw place, but to kind of, okay, let's get back up on the road on the trenches.

SPEAKER_01 30:30

Yeah, yeah, it's yeah. So yeah, won't go down that path mentally of recalling all of my weed conversations that I also shared in. Okay, Joy. So I know that we are unfortunately coming, coming up on time. So if advisors are like, huh, this kind of art of storytelling, this aspect of using storytelling within the planning process is interesting and they want to learn more. Where can advisors maybe learn more about this stuff? Where can they also find you and connect with you as well?

SPEAKER_00 31:04

Absolutely. So we have done a developed a specific storytelling training and workshop. We do this live. Sometimes we do it at conferences. It is also built on our Compass dashboard platform. So we have an always-on CE library full of training, client-facing tools that you can access. You can sign up for free at Shaping Wealth. And so I encourage you to go there. There, we have a storytelling for advisors training there. If that's something you're interested in, a workshop for your team, you can reach out to us at any time. But as you think about that, okay, what are like practical next steps? Start with self-awareness. Start going through that exercise of what is my story? What is my financial past? What are the people, the things, the events that have influenced and impacted me? Where am I now? How do I feel about that? How's money playing out in my relationships? Where do I want to go? So, kind of that past, present, future. Go through that for yourself. Sit down, open a dock, and and see what just reflect on what that is. Also, if you want to, I really encourage people to look at the study more about the hero's journey and really think about your client is the hero. How are you positioning yourself as a guide to help them avoid pain and ultimately achieve success?

SPEAKER_01 32:26

I love all of that. And if advisors want to connect with you and learn more about you and your writings and your work, where can they find you? Where can they hang out with you?

SPEAKER_00 32:35

So you can find me on LinkedIn, um, Joy Larry and my degree PSYD. And I also have a substack called Finding Joy, where I share my musings about life, love, and work. So you can find that there as well.

SPEAKER_01 32:48

Wonderful. We'll make sure that we link all of that in the show notes. Joy, thank you so much for coming on and having this conversation. I know that I've appreciated hearing just your perspective and the way that you've framed things. And I have no doubts that anyone who's listened to this today will also feel the same. And remember, my friends, finances don't have feelings, but your clients do. Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going beyond. Thanks for joining me on this episode of Planning and Beyond. I hope you found today's insights valuable and inspiring for both your practice and your personal growth. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. Your feedback helps us reach more advisors like you who are dedicated to making a difference. For more resources, tips, and to continue the conversation, visit our website at beyondthefp.com. You'll find articles, tools, and information about upcoming episodes designed to support your journey and practice. Stay connected with us on social media and never miss an update. Follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn. And remember, the best way to grow is to keep learning and sharing. Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going beyond.