SPEAKER_02 0:00

The failure or the uncertainty part?

SPEAKER_00 0:02

The uncertainty, not the failure, too, yeah, because they haven't failed yet. Because we know the uncertainty. Yeah. And that's when, and I'm I'm a behavioral financial advisor. I'm supposed to know about this certainty of uncertainty. And I allowed a little too much certainty of, yeah, okay, great job. You're saving your thousand a month or you're doing your 2,000 and you're on track. And all right, go get pre-qualified and meet with a realtor. And what do you mean all the houses are $300,000 more than we planned?

SPEAKER_03 0:31

Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the show where financial planning meets human understanding. As an exceptional financial advisor, you know that financial planning is about more than just numbers. It's about giving clients the clarity they need to align their money with what matters most, which is why each episode is designed with that goal in mind. You'll learn how to uncover the psychology behind client decisions and gain insights and behavioral strategies needed to create deeper, more meaningful client relationships. You'll discover techniques for navigating emotional client situations drawn from conversations with leading industry experts in behavioral finance, psychology, communication, and more. Whether it's mastering discovery meetings, handling sensitive client conversations, or understanding what is truly keeping your client stuck, you'll walk away with not only strategies that you can use in your next client meeting, but also the confidence to do so. Oh yeah, hi. I should probably introduce myself. I'm your host, Ashley Kwame, a therapist who somehow wandered into the world of financial behavior and kind of decided to stay. My mission is to help you bridge the gap between financial planning and human understanding. Because remember, finances don't have feelings, but your clients do. Let's dive in. Today, my friends marks a pretty exciting milestone in the Planning and Beyond podcast. It is our very first case consultation episode. If you are new to the show, or if you did not listen to episode 27, the season two opener, here's how these case consultations work. Real advisors bring on real client scenarios that they're navigating. And together we explore the psychological dynamics, the behavioral dynamics, everything, all the stuff at play. And together we develop some strategies that you can implement in maybe similar situations. While we're diving deep into one specific case, everything that we discuss here is really designed to give you tools and insights for your own practice. All right. Today I am joined by my friend, podcast host, fellow podcast host, recently in real life friend, Johans Harrison. Yeah, IRL, a recent, recent in real life friend, Johans Harrison, who is going to be talking about a case here. I'm pretty excited about. Johans, welcome to the show. Thank you for being our inaugural case consultation guest.

SPEAKER_00 3:29

Thank you, Ashley. I am excited and just as nervous as you.

SPEAKER_02 3:34

Okay, good, good. Can we get that straight out the gate? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

Okay, yes. I'm just as nervous as you. And I and I'm excited to have this conversation with you, really, because as an independent financial advisor, I don't have the community at, as I like to say, at the coffee stand where I can go and just kind of talk about things with other advisors, which is one thing I do miss about being in the bigger brokerage warehouses, is I had that and I don't now. So you're creating that space for me. And I appreciate that. And I cannot wait to kind of dive in just a bit. So as you mentioned, we're both podcast hosts. So we love to have these conversations and create these spaces for other advisors to or professionals. You don't have to be an advisor, but for other professionals to be able to listen in and maybe pick up a tip or two that can help them thrive in their business as well. So thank you for creating the space, Ashley. This is amazing and excited to be the first.

SPEAKER_03 4:30

Yeah. I don't know. Well, maybe you might regret that at the end of this. We'll see. TBD. TBD here. But okay. All right. So you mentioned being a podcast host. And before we get into like all of the good stuff here, before we dive in, I would love if you would share with our listeners a little bit about you, your practice, your podcasts, all the good stuff there.

SPEAKER_00 4:49

Absolutely. So I've been a financial planner for 25 years. I started in one of the big wirehouses, eventually went out on my own about eight years ago and founded Money Script Wealth Management, where I specialize in working with emergency room physicians. They were an emergency room physician, it was one of my first clients many, many years ago. And when I went into business for myself, I went to that client and said, Do you have any ideas on how I could grow? And she said, Follow me. And she introduced me to the world of emergency physicians. So I decided to make that a specialty. So I work with a lot of professional organizations that support that profession. I do work with other clients that aren't emergency physicians, but that's where I like to spend my marketing dollars and time is in that space. I am also a podcast host now for five years. My first podcast is the Money Script Podcast. You can find it everywhere you listen to podcasts. On that podcast, I would just talk to all my friends, is whether I did it. Reach out to friends and clients, and we just had conversations about money. From there, Ashley, you and I went through a podcast workshop, and I learned that I had some untapped potential in niching down, like I did with my practice, and focusing on delivering messages directly to emergency physicians and delivering messages directly to other advisors. And so I founded two other podcasts, Only Human, wherever you find your podcast, where I talk to other advisors about how AI is entering into the work that we do and how we can embrace it and not fear it. And the second one is becoming an attending. And that is specifically for physicians that are going through medical school into their residency and then becoming an attending physician. So and there I interview other physicians and we talk about the financial hurdles of getting through those steps because they are it can be tough. It can be tough. So but we're having a lot of fun with those. So anywhere you listen to podcasts or just search by name, you'll find my podcast.

SPEAKER_03 6:34

Yeah. And they're pretty cool. Look, I'll be honest, they're they're pretty cool. Johans is pretty awesome. Definitely.

SPEAKER_00 6:40

And you were a guest on Only Human, and it is my top episode right now, I must say. Oh they were happy to hear from you.

SPEAKER_03 6:47

Well, I I appreciate that. So I I it must be our dynamic. I won't take it. It must be just our dynamic there. Uh that must be what it is. All right. Well, I'm excited to dive into dive into this case that um we were just talking about before we hit record. And so why don't maybe you kind of walk us through, walk us through this scenario high level here, and then we'll kind of take that like funnel approach, right? We'll start off pretty big and then really kind of get into the nitty-gritty here. So I'm gonna turn it over to you. Tell us about the scenario that you're bringing to the discussion here today.

SPEAKER_00 7:23

So, so high level, I I was saying to you at the at the when we were preparing, I can't be alone in this. I know others are feeling this pain. Uh, but high level, it's what happens when you put together a plan for a client for a goal, and you get to the time where they're supposed to be achieving that goal and they can't achieve it, but it's to no fault of their own. And the specific scenario is home purchase, buying a home. You know, if we go back five, six years pre-COVID, I had clients coming to me with plans of buying a home. And and let's speak of a client that was recently graduated out of residency, became an attending physician, and took my advice and said, let's save some money and for you to buy your first home. And when we were doing the math on how much they would need to save, I'm telling them save somewhere between 10 and 20% for the down payment. I'm telling them to focus on build their cash reserves, knock down some of those student loans a little bit, things of that nature. But when we were running the cost of home ownership, we were looking at home prices and interest rates that are nowhere near where they are today. The home prices have gone up nearly 50% in some of the cities that my clients live, and interest rates have doubled. And that just really changes the math of them being able to afford the home. And I've had multiple conversations, and one even more recently, last night, with a client where I said, So how how are we doing this home thing? And they're just defeated. I'm like, what are we gonna do? We can't, what we want, we can't afford, and which means we have to save more. But if we have to save more, you know, what will it the houses still be there? What are interest rates gonna do? I I guess we're just gonna be renters for life. And I feel like, oh, that's the one extreme. You went all the way to this renters for life. Do we have to go there? Which, and that's not a bad thing. There are no individuals that have decided to be renters for life. I get it. I think for me as an advisor, my role was to say, here's what you need to do in order to reach that goal. And we put this plan together, and then the time has come. And it's not like they don't have the down payment, it's just that their down payment won't support the new prices of the homes. And the interest rates have now affected the debt-to-income ratio for their ability to afford the home. And so all I can tell them is like, oh, well, instead of a 1.5 million house, just get a 1.1, or you know, instead of a 800,000, just get a 500,000. And it's not always that easy because a lot of thought goes into their choices of where they buy the home. If they have children, they're thinking about school districts, or if they have family nearby, they want to be near, they want to be in the community that they like. They don't want to go too far from work because then they have to commute. So yeah, I'm just I'm I'm looking for some. I I don't just want to look at them and smile and nod and say, oh, too bad, or ah, just save more. I I just I feel like there's a um, as we spoke about on our podcast, there's uh an emotional intelligence piece here that I may be missing um so that I can feel more confident in how to enter in those conversations. Because that's the thing, I know what's going on before I get to the meeting. Because I haven't got the call, say, hey, we bought a house, or oh, you put an offer in. I so I know what I'm walking into, and I walk into a meeting and they're both looking at the camera like this. And I'm like, okay.

SPEAKER_03 10:32

So how's your day? Here we go, right? Yeah. All right, so there's two components here. Like when I'm listening to you talk about this, and I and you know, for those of you listening, like I think that this is true actually in in every in every scenario, which I I want to make mention of. But there's two components here that I'm hearing from you. There's the client side, right? Like I hear you saying, Hey, I'd like to like know how to navigate kind of this scenario, this situation. I can I kind of know what's happening, but like the emotional part, right? Like, you don't need help on the technical side. The math ain't mathing, right? Plans change, math ain't mathing, but there's an emotional component here, right? There it sounds like there's some stuckness. I don't know if that's a word. I just kind of use it. I use it like it is, but I'm not sure if it is. But there's like a level of stuckedness, right, on the emotional navigation piece. And then I also, Johans, I also like kind of noticed you started talking kind of fast there, like telling me about the client scenario. And then I watched, and for those of you that you know, this isn't on video, but like you probably heard Johans do the like the sigh, right? And as I am implementing some of what I teach, like whole body listening, strategic listening, like I just watched like your voice telling me about this case scenario, like start to speed up, like the speed in which it was speeding up. And I watched you and I watched your body language, and then I saw you like gonna take this sigh and compone it. And so I'm highlighting, I'm highlighting that right now very explicitly because there is a client navigation emotional piece. But dude, there's also like a you piece to this as well.

SPEAKER_00 12:08

No, I I feel defeated. That was where that was what I was saying. I feel like, wait, I had one job. Yeah. And I failed. I I didn't, I haven't helped you get the house. And I don't know how to help you emotionally navigate, other than like you said, the math isn't math. I'm like, save more money, be okay with spending more or whatever. You know, that that there's those financial components of it. Or sorry, your kids aren't going to private school if you want the house. But I also feel like, oh, wait, I I if I could go back in time, knowing what I know now, of course, I feel I could have done a better job of emotionally preparing them for the failure that they don't have control over.

SPEAKER_02 12:48

The failure or the uncertainty part?

SPEAKER_00 12:50

The uncertainty, not the failure, too, yeah, because they haven't failed yet. Because we know the uncertainty. Yeah. And that's when and I'm I'm a behavioral financial advisor. I'm supposed to know about this certainty of uncertainty. And I allowed a little too much certainty of, yeah, okay, great job. You're saving your thousand a month, or you're doing your 2,000 and you're on track. And all right, go get pre-qualified and meet with a realtor. And what do you mean all the houses are $300,000 more than we planned?

SPEAKER_03 13:18

Yeah. So we're talking about like two different like components here. There's a you component, the you factor, right? I like like there's the you factor, and then there's the like client piece, the client factor, the client like navigation. And I think it's really important that anytime we're, you know, as I say as practitioners, right? Like both you and I working in like client services, like anytime that we are, you know, we come up against like rough spots or places of stuckness, we have to recognize first that, hey, there's two components here. There's a me piece, and then there's a client piece, and and three, actually. I'm lying, there's three and a we piece, right? Like in these moments with clients, like you're having to simultaneously balance them, all of their stuff, right? The math, the technical piece, like their responses, right? Like all that. You're having to balance the you part, the like, man, I feel defeated. I feel like I've kind of let them down. I feel like if I could go back in time, there's maybe like some regret there. And then there's also the relational, like we, like dynamic piece. Now, how do I navigate this relationally with them now that we've reached like this point, you know? So, like there's three components here that we're talking, that we're talking about. All right, I'm gonna ask you, because listen, and this was not part of like the perfect plan that I wrote down for like this episode. So go with me. Like, go, go with me, friend.

SPEAKER_00 14:47

Let me put my seatbelt on. Hold on.

SPEAKER_03 14:48

Put it on. Yeah, you better, you better tighten it too. All right. So, like for you, and I think that this will bring value to everyone that's listening. Let's pick one of those three and let's start. Where do you want to go first? You want to dive into the you advisor piece? You want to dive into the we relational or kind of like the client and what you thinking?

SPEAKER_00 15:10

I want to be selfish. I want to dive into the me piece because I I want to take responsibility. And I want I plan to be an advisor for another couple of decades. So I want to learn how to how to do better with this. Cool.

SPEAKER_03 15:23

Okay. Yeah. No, I listen, uh, like that's the part that I'm gonna get most excited about, is like, yeah, it's the easiest one in my book, right? For me, I'm like, yeah, let's talk about you.

SPEAKER_00 15:32

Of course it's easy for you. It's about me. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 15:35

Right, yeah, yeah. I'm on this side of the microphone. This is great. This is great. Okay, so first let me just like validate the fact that you can own and say, I feel defeated, right? Or I feel like I've let you down. Like your ability to recognize that, that that's playing like into this, that that is coming up, and also share that like so freely, like willingly. I hope it feels willingly. I hope it doesn't feel like I'm like twisting your arm there to like share and dive into that. I want to just validate, like, that's incredible, man. Like that is awesome that you can acknowledge that, own that, and say, like, hey, my like this is how I'm feeling in this situation and it's uncomfortable and I don't like it, but it's real, you know? That is, I think, like kind of step one, right? Is like being able to turn inward and say, this situation, this scenario, this is what's coming up for me, right? Because then when we can do that, then we know what we're working with. It's like on your end, like when you have all the numbers, like when you have all the math, right? Like all the parts and pieces, like then you know how to like put it together, you know? And I feel like that's the same thing when we're talking about like the emotional landscape, is like, what's your emotional landscape? What all is like coming up there? Because then we know how to work with it and deal with it. So, my question, I guess, kind of for you is you've mentioned a few things here in a scenario like this, or even just maybe more high level too. Is there any other parts or pieces or components to that emotional landscape that come up? Right. You mentioned feeling kind of defeated, like, oh, I'll let you down. What else comes up for you?

SPEAKER_00 17:14

So, so defeat is the key one. As I was mentioned, the if only I could go back in time. I don't know the feeling to give that. I guess it's a it's it's it's a lack of it's kind of a punch to my self-confidence a bit. I have this training, I have this knowledge, and I miss something. And maybe it even goes to a, oh, it's the what is it? You talked about it when we were together, the imposter syndrome. That's what it is. That's what it is. So who who am I to tell them that they will be able to buy this house in five years?

SPEAKER_03 17:48

I see.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

So it creates a small piece of emptiness inside.

SPEAKER_03 17:53

Oh man, dude, that's heavy.

SPEAKER_00 17:55

Yeah, I again I have one job. So and and you know, maybe I'm putting too much on myself in that, but I've had too much success almost because I've been in a career 25 years.

SPEAKER_01 18:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:08

The amount of housewarming gifts I've given out are massive because people have done and the amount of clients that have sent them messages that say, I couldn't have done this without you. But now it's a I couldn't do it with you. So, and not that I think that they think they'd be better off without me, but I think it almost goes to the not to push you ahead, but it kind of goes to the we. Like, how do I I I hear you first in in being able to verbalize to the client how I feel. And that's something I I haven't done in any of those situations. Because this is not just one client. This is this is, I mean, I've gone through this because I mean we all live through it. Interest rates doubled, housing prices went up 30 to 50 percent on average, between depending on the city you live in. So we all kind of experience it at the same time. I don't think I've actually validated how I feel to my clients. And I think that's a huge opportunity to let them know that even though I am, I'm in a house, but I but I bought mine five years ago. But even though I but I do, I can empathize with them because I feel like I was a part of them reaching this goal as much as they were. And I wanted it as much as them, and I wanted it to be right, and I wanted the interest rates to stay this stay down, and I wanted home prices to stay down, and they didn't, and I feel defeated also. I just feel like I gotta turn that with a now, here's what we do, I guess. I don't know. Um I'm gonna be quiet for a second and sip cold.

SPEAKER_03 19:30

Well, I mean, maybe like I don't know. So there's a framework that you know that I like to work, that I like to work from think, feel, do, right? And so what I just walked you through is I remember that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? Like you just walked through like and shared the thoughts and the feelings, right? Component piece, like there. The do part, what I heard you say is that those thoughts and feelings were coming up. And instead of maybe verbalizing from a place of transparency, you you didn't, right? And this is not a judgment, right?

SPEAKER_00 20:03

But like you didn't, but like Ashley, this happened last night. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:06

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:07

I went through this last night with a client. This was real, this is fresh. I was staring at the Zoom and looking at the discontent in their faces of we're never gonna buy a home. And I could just say, So let's look at these returns inside your Roth IRA. These are nice. Oh, okay. Oh, you maxed it out this year. Cool. That's not what I did in real life, but that's where my brain was going, like, quit get me out of here, eject button right now, fly me out of the seat.

SPEAKER_03 20:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:37

And bring me back to a time where things were simpler.

SPEAKER_03 20:40

Uh or I feel a semblance of competency, right? Yeah. Like, I'm not, I don't know how to navigate this. This is uncomfortable. I don't feel competent in this like little emotional zone of like where I feel like sometimes I make noises to communicate feelings.

SPEAKER_00 20:55

I understand what that feeling was.

SPEAKER_03 20:56

Okay, thank you. So let me move then on to the technical piece, right? Uh there. Makes total perfect sense. I get it. It makes a lot of sense. You mentioned, though, really the key, right? You you know, talking about the we part. And I actually think what you shared here just now would be a really beautiful gift to give to them and yourself, right? To be able to go, listen, this sucks. The plan we had five years ago, like I'm with you. Like, I, you know, that is what I thought. That math was mathing and those things that we talked about, like they were all like true. And here we are now, fast forward. And due to external circumstances that we have no control over the thing that we are planning for, hoping for, like wanting, like it's not possible right now. It's not possible right now, and that sucks. And I feel, you know, however it is that you want to describe emotionally, right? You're just own landscape, right? Like I'm in the trench with you, and that stinks. And if I had a magic wand and I could go back, like I think I probably would have prepared you guys a little bit. Better for the emotional uncertainty. And I regret and take ownership over that piece, right? I couldn't have seen this coming, but I can say that, man, like the here's how if I could go back, here's how what I would do. You know, I that's one, I'll say, like, that's really bold to be able to do that. It's vulnerable. And I know that for a lot of people it feels risky. Like, what? Like, I can't go back to my clients and be like, yo, Mea Culpa messed up. Like, I should have done this better.

SPEAKER_00 22:29

No, but I feel like that if I don't, I'm gonna get an ACAT. Like, if I don't own this and show that I'm I'm vulnerable, that I'm human, that I was a part of the best laid plans as well, and I was rooting for them and we didn't win. It's it's like the the I'm sorry to use a sports analogy, but it's like the coach of the basketball, baseball, whatever team takes them all the way to the championship and then they lose. And who said it's the coach's fault? You know, it's not it's not always the coach. No, the mistakes were made. But the coach was there with them all the way through the trenches, preparing them all the way, but somewhere something was amiss. So I think having that that empathy as the coach, as the advisor, I think can go a long way with the players, aka the clients. And and I think that's what made some of the greater coaches that we know, they lost too a lot. But it was that if you hear any of the players talk about those coaches, they talk about the emotional intelligence that those coaches had in the good times and in the bad. And and I think that's what what I I get to do. And I feel better already.

SPEAKER_03 23:33

I love your sports analogy, one, because I do enjoy, I do enjoy sports. And I I think it is a perfect analogy, right? Because, you know, you you have a level of you know influence there. You're not on the field playing the game, but there is a level of influence there. And you know, I do think to like acknowledge that, like it, you know, it makes you a great coach. It's what makes you a great advisor. Okay, so you just said that you feel better already. Let's, I know like some forecasting, I know that can be emotional forecasting can be a little dangerous. I recognize, I recognize that, but let's just kind of fast forward here. Let's put you like next week, next Tuesday, you're meeting with this client. You share with them, like, hey, look, you know that meeting we had last week, like, can we just can I just like pause and just kind of take a moment and just kind of share this with you, right? And you share all these like wonderful, lovely, like like super like touchy feely things, right? That we just talked about. What do you think you're gonna be feeling after sharing all of that with them?

SPEAKER_00 24:35

Well, the key thing I think I will feel is the relief of the boulder off my back that I just get to put my or the boulder or the sack, if you will. I get to take the sack down, open it up, and just spill the contents out. And I don't have to pick the same things back up and put them back in the sack when I leave. Because some of them are gonna be and some of them they're gonna tell me that does I might even be told, what are you talking about? They might tell me that they were actually having a problem with some they're plumbing, and that's why they were so blah about and they are who knows? They may tell me, but for me to not have to carry it anymore will be an emotional relief for me.

SPEAKER_01 25:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:13

And again, not to be selfish, but also to be selfish, I gotta secure my own oxygen mass first.

SPEAKER_03 25:20

A thousand percent.

SPEAKER_00 25:21

So I I know I will feel an emotional, and that's why I was saying, okay, I feel so much better because I'm I'm seeing, I'm forecasting, I'm gonna feel better saying this out loud to my clients.

SPEAKER_03 25:31

I love that.

SPEAKER_00 25:32

Now, what they do with it, I I will be vulnerable to that because they could come at me and say, Well, yeah, you you messed up. They can they can then should me for the next 10 minutes if they want to. And and I'm I'm okay with that. I'd rather have that, I'd rather them unpack their sack as well, or else they're also carrying that around into all of our meetings and not let out. So I'd rather have the tough conversation with them because that's only going to improve our relationship. And it's gonna make us both think twice about the next plan. And I I want them to challenge me and say, okay, can we talk about what if this doesn't work out? Yes, let's talk about, let's go through some because I feel like I I again, as I think about this one client in particular, the income was good, the you know the amount of debt they I mean, there were so many things that were going well for them. It was uh, you're gonna be fine. What are you worried about? Just keep saving your money and everything's gonna be fine. And then the whole world changed.

SPEAKER_03 26:26

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:27

And it was one of those things where it's like, we weren't taking risks with their down payment. It's like, no, the down, the down payment is there. It's just a down payment for a million instead of a down payment for 1.5.

SPEAKER_03 26:36

There's so much good, like rich stuff that you're talking about here that I just want to highlight because what you've just shared is, I think, something that gets overlooked when we come to our clients and we very humbly, vulnerably share, hey, messed up. Hey, I could have done that better. Hey, I don't know the answer here. You know, what we're doing is modeling for them the kind of vulnerability, the kind of relationship, the kind of engagement that we would like for them to have with us. And we're not explicitly like saying that, right? It's like the subtext to the text, you know, but like it lands on them in that way. And they're like, man, like Johans is a good dude. Like he can say, like, hey, like I'm in this with you. Like, thanks for bringing pointing that out. Like, huh, yeah, we do need to consider that. Like, I appreciate that, right? Like, you know, that's gonna land on them. That's gonna get in their head, and you know, that's gonna make them think, like, oh, I can now share too and open up, like about how I'm feeling about things, right? Like, I'm pretty worried about this, right? Or I don't, I don't really know. And that is the kind of relationship we we want to have with our clients. The other piece too of what I love of what you just shared is that whether we want it this way, whether we realize it, there is a power dynamic here that can sometimes be at play where we get placed in the expert role or position.

SPEAKER_01 28:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 28:07

Yeah, right. And like, okay, you Johans might be the expert when it comes to financial planning, but the clients are the experts of their lives and you know what what they want. And so what I love about, you know, this thing that we're talking about here and how you're approaching it with clients is that we're collaboratively saying, hey, let's do this together. Like I might know a little bit more about this piece, but like you guys know a little bit more about this, right? And let's come together and create something really cool and meaningful that aligns with what you want. So I love that. I love all of what you just said.

SPEAKER_00 28:47

Yeah, I'm I appreciate this. This was like I said, this was fresh. When I say fresh, like I I'm not kidding, last night, my final meeting of the night. That was the conversation. That's what I went to bed with last night. Oh man, I was like, how was the meeting? I was like, uh, more wine, please.

SPEAKER_03 29:04

More wine. Yeah. There's is there enough? Is there, is there enough wine? All right. So I want to just maybe just talk a little bit. We kind of we we talked about the you and the we. Let's talk just maybe a little bit about like client.

SPEAKER_00 29:17

Yes, please, please. Right.

SPEAKER_03 29:18

Yeah, like here. So you mentioned a few things just in terms of presentation, right? Like, okay, there's this problem around the plan has to change. And it's like no one's fault, right? But it just like has to change. And so, you know, it sounds like presentation-wise, and it could be true, maybe it's not true. Like you said, maybe they're having a plumbing problem, but they're presenting right in a way that kind of looks defeated. Are there any other like individual pieces here in terms of how they're presenting? Like, are they getting more upset? Like, do you notice they're more agitated? Are they like turning to more self-deprecating thoughts or statements?

SPEAKER_00 29:59

Exactly. It was a the statement of we're just gonna be renters forever. Okay. And, you know, in my mind, I'm like, forever's a long time. So, you know, I mean, things could change, interest rates could go down, home prices go down. Like, yeah, right. When's that gonna happen? I can show the data it has. So and that's and and I don't want to get in the tit for tat in that situation. So I think I mean this was very helpful as far as just unpacking for for me, but did there there does need to be a getting back in coach mode. Now, how do I coach this defeated, this person that just lost the championship that they worked so hard for that everyone expected them to win? The fans are going for them, Vegas was rooting for them, and they lost, and it's because you missed the free throw. How do I now coach this person to play another season?

SPEAKER_03 30:48

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think that, okay, one, let's just like fast forward. You've shared with them, like you've done all this great, like, great kind of stuff. Like you're feeling confident, you've come back into coach mode, right? Like your sense of self is pretty good. Like first and foremost, like we have to allow clients to feel what it is that they're feeling. Like it sounds like this client, like they're pretty, like you said, defeated, right? And they're then, you know, almost kind of sort of like catastrophizing, right? They're going to like the extremes, like the absolutes, like the I'm never gonna like I'm always gonna rent. Like they're using that extreme, like kind of language there. Absolutes. I hate them, I hate that. I just hate them. Absolutely. Yes, yes, yeah. And and those are hard, understandably so for us, like in our positions, because it's like you said, it's like, look, I can show you the data, like it's not gonna be this way forever. We do this with our kids too. Like, I find myself, you know, I'm like, listen, like you, you will at some point get a phone, you know, you'll you're not gonna be the only one forever that won't have, you know, right? We have to give room, like allow for our clients to have some room, like emotional room and space to kind of process there, right? Especially, you know, initially. And for some clients take longer, right, than others. It doesn't mean that you can't bring in and insert, you know, some data, but you gotta you gotta kind of be sensitive, right? To like, can I make this move or can I not make this move? And your best bet here, at least out the gate, is to validate like their experience. And I think that you're pretty fantastic at that. So I have no doubts that you, you know, can do that. But like just remember if they're giving you those, like, I'm always gonna rent, like it's like that's one of those strategic listening pieces where it's like, okay, they're giving me absolutes. Like, I need to come in with validation, a little more validation. You know, hey, like I totally get it, man. It feels pretty hopeless. Like, or it seems like, you know, it's pretty defeating to like be working this. I totally understand that. It makes a lot of sense to me why you would feel that way. And you shower them like a few rounds of validation, and then you do like this really cool thing, right? Hopefully, maybe if they're a little more emotionally regulated and you say, like, hey, I don't know if you're ready to hear this. If you're not, it's okay. If you're like not in that place right now, would it be okay? Would you be willing to maybe let me share some information kind of from my perspective, right? Some some data, right? Some numbers, like some figures here. Like, would it be okay? And they might be like, I mean, uh and if they come back at you and they say something like, I mean, I don't know what good it's gonna do, because like, you know, it's not if they still are like giving you the like sour, negative, Nancy like response, that's your cue to like, all right, nah, like they're not ready. Like they're not ready.

SPEAKER_00 33:47

Yeah, I I think I think in in real life situations, I'm my wife tells me about this that I I tend to have a bit of a Superman complex sometimes where I'll just fix it instead of asking for permission to fix it. So, and that's what I noticed that you said after the validation to then say to ask, is it okay if I share some perspective with you here? And here's the thing they're paying me to be their financial advisor and to give them advice. If they say no, I don't want your perspective, I've got bigger problems.

SPEAKER_03 34:20

You yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 34:21

So, and that should be that should be some aside now, and I'd probably dig deeper into that actually, like, oh, tell me more. Why and then they may say, look, I just don't want you as a financial advisor, but great, glad we came to that conclusion. Exit on the next turn, turn state, you know, or I just need to like sit with this for a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 34:37

Or any time. I just need some time.

SPEAKER_00 34:38

Yeah, which is okay too. Absolutely. Which is okay too. So so I I think that ask because I think in the past, when I've dealt, because like I said, I've I've dealt with this multiple multiple times, and I've I am remembering myself on Zoom quickly, going to another window, going to the Case Schiller index and just popping it up and sharing the screen and saying, hey, look, there's times where housing prices go down, so all is not lost, and it's been a straight lineup lately. So I don't know what's happening on this right side yet. You don't either, but let's have some faith and then talk about the Roth IRA. Um, so I I'm I'm hearing that I could have a higher emotional intelligence by giving the validation and then asking for some permission to provide the perspective and then deciding, figuring out where that perspective needs to go. Because it may not be home prices, it may have to do with their ability to save, it may be with helping them expand what's possible where they can live. And I've done that with some clients, you know, just hop on Zillow and say, all right, well, what zip code are you looking in? Okay, well, let me let me give you some tips on searching on Zillow and showing them how to use all the different drop-downs and expanding it. And then they're like, oh, well, let's zoom into that. And I've done that with them. We zoom into another neighborhood. They're like, oh, I never thought about that neighborhood. And they look at each other, well, maybe let's well let's and then they do some research and then they have the the the renewed excitement again, thinking that okay, it might be possible. There are some places where the the pricing is a little bit more in our favor. Um, so but no, that that's good. I and and like you said, like I I mentioned, gaining that permission, like you mentioned, gaining that permission, being ready to listen, to shut up and listen.

SPEAKER_03 36:14

Yeah, well, yeah or shut the F up and listen. Or or as our as our Matt Halloran, what episode 25. I think you can go back and listen. Yeah. To that, yes, uh, or shut the F up and listen, friend. Uh yeah. Yeah. Look, I what I love about that too, the last point I guess I'll make here is that that permission piece, what it does is then you've not expended like unnecessary energy perspective, right? Or like invite like giving it to them to then only be frustrated and maybe resentful that like it didn't land on them well, right? Yeah. Like you've also saved and given yourself a little bit more emotional breathing room too when you do ask for that permission. And of course, you know, fun fact, this also works with your spouse too. So um bonus and kids, yeah. Bonus tip there. All right. So before we wrap up, we've talked about a lot.

SPEAKER_00 37:09

That was good. Thank good. So much for my second scenario. I guess I'm gonna have to come back to the right. Right?

SPEAKER_03 37:14

Yeah, yeah, we will, yeah, for sure. Yeah. We didn't, dude, we like didn't even like, there's no way we were gonna get it.

SPEAKER_00 37:20

No, but this was oh, actually, that this thank you for allowing me to be the inaugural advisor guest for this. This was extremely helpful. Now, the only thing I regret is that I wasn't taking notes. So as soon as we hang up, I'm going to brain dump, but then I'll be waiting for this episode to release so I can hear it again a couple of times.

SPEAKER_03 37:43

Listen, friend, I got you. Yeah, I got I got you. Don't worry, don't worry. I got you. I got you. All right, let's just recap here because we have talked about a lot. And I need for my in order to synthesize all of this, like I need to kind of recap this in my brain. Okay, so we we talked about from today. We talked about that there's really three components when we're talking about a case, right? There's the you advisor piece, there is the client piece, and then there's the we piece, right? So for those of you right kind of listening, I want you when you're up against kind of a client scenario, right? Remember that there are three components here. And if we can dig in deep to each of those three, you can use my think feel do framework if you want, or just explore what's coming up, but like think about those in terms of three right kind of different areas, see what comes up, right? What's the landscape that that's really like at play here? All right. So that would be kind of takeaway number one. Takeaway number two, from what I'm from what I'm hearing, is like validation can be helpful. Validation can be pretty key in terms of emotionally regulating ourselves, but also our client. And then I'm gonna turn, I'm putting you on the spot here, friend. Like third takeaway. Like, what would you say? Like for listeners, for advisors, what would you want them to leave and take away from this?

SPEAKER_00 39:00

I would want them to remember that it's okay to pause, freeze a moment, and in that moment, ask for permission before you jump into telling them what they need to hear. Because in that situation, you're what was happening is I was doing the let me tell you what you need to hear for me versus it being for them. They needed more of the emotional piece, and then I needed permission to give them the technical piece. So that that would be my third is is gain permission in those situations, gain permission before you go technical again, or else you're just doing it for yourself.

SPEAKER_03 39:31

I love, oh, I love that. Yeah, that is so good. That's perfect way to perfect way to wrap us up. So, my challenge for all of you listening is in your next meeting, the next week or two, what have you, is pay attention to these three things, these three takeaways that Johans and I just mentioned here. See what comes up. Uh, use the strategic listening framework that I talked about in episode 27. You can go back and listen to that, uh, see what maybe you might have missed. Johans, thank you so much, my friend. Thank you so much for being vulnerable enough to bring this case and your own self here to our listeners for all of us to learn from your willingness to explore these dynamics. I have no doubt that it's going to be helping everyone who's listening here to be able to serve their clients more effectively and also themselves as well. So I would love to have you back on to talk about anything and all thing cases. We will, we might just have to make that happen. So we might just, we just might. We just might. Thank you to all of you for tuning in and allowing Johans and I into your ears and into your mind today. If you would like to hang out with us outside of the podcast, Johans, where can people find you? Where can they hang out with you?

SPEAKER_00 40:46

So moneyscriptwealth.com, where is where you can find everything there is about me. I'm on YouTube, as I mentioned, for the shows. I'm on Instagram. And if you really want to have some fun, catch me in the comments on LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_02 40:59

So true. Yes. Yes, that is so true.

SPEAKER_03 41:02

The engagement king he is. Yes, I love it. Uh, we'll make sure that we link all of that in the show notes. You can also find me on LinkedIn where I like to hang out. I need to be more in the comments. I need to, I need to do better about hanging out in the comments, but you can find me there. You can find me there. You can also follow the Planning and Beyond podcast on all of your podcast platforms. We're also now on YouTube. So you can find us on YouTube. Woop whoop, yeah, making big things happen.

SPEAKER_00 41:31

So supposedly that's the place to be now. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 41:33

I guess it is. I'm gonna try it out and see. We'll see. I'll keep you posted. Uh keep you posted. But you can follow us there and remember finances don't have feelings, but your clients do. Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going beyond. Thanks for joining me on this episode of Planning and Beyond. I hope you found today's insights valuable and inspiring for both your practice and your personal growth. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. Your feedback helps us reach more advisors like you who are dedicated to making a difference. For more resources, tips, and to continue the conversation, visit our website at beyondthefp.com. You'll find articles, tools, and information about upcoming episodes designed to support your journey and practice. Stay connected with us on social media and never miss an update. Follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn. And remember, the best way to grow is to keep learning and sharing. Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going beyond.