SPEAKER_01 0:00

You're going to make that space just long enough to set your client at a little bit of discomfort because they're wondering why you're not talking and you're giving them the space to continue talking. And what I have found, and there is researching with motivational interviewing and some of the other things that you and I have studied. I know that if I can do that twice, where we get to from where we began is actually what they want to talk about and their real pain points. Two five-second breaks is going to get somebody to truly tell you what they need.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the show where financial planning meets human understanding. As an exceptional financial advisor, you know that financial planning is about more than just numbers. It's about giving clients the clarity they need to align their money with what matters most, which is why each episode is designed with that goal in mind. You'll learn how to uncover the psychology behind client decisions and gain insights and behavioral strategies needed to create deeper, more meaningful client relationships. You'll discover techniques for navigating emotional client situations drawn from conversations with leading industry experts in behavioral finance, psychology, communication, and more. Whether it's mastering discovery meetings, handling sensitive client conversations, or understanding what is truly keeping your client stuck, you'll walk away with not only strategies that you can use in your next client meeting, but also the confidence to do so. Oh yeah, hi. I should probably introduce myself. I'm your host, Ashley Kwame, a therapist who somehow wandered into the world of financial behavior and kind of decided to stay. My mission is to help you bridge the gap between financial planning and human understanding. Because remember, finances don't have feelings, but your clients do. Let's dive in. Welcome to Planning and Beyond, where financial planning meets human understanding. I'm your host, Ashley Kwame. Today I am thrilled to welcome the one, the only, Matt Halloran. Matt is the co-founder of Proudmouth, a speaker, and the author of his latest book, Shut the F Up and Listen, which we will be diving into here. I am so excited. Matt, welcome to the show, my friend. I am so glad that you are here recording with me.

SPEAKER_01 2:32

I'm so happy you're podcasting. I love your show. I think you're doing an absolutely fantastic job. And truly, it's an honor to be here, ex-recovering therapist, and uh talking about something I'm really passionate about, which I learned as a therapist. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:45

Yes, I'm glad that you have put this content, which, you know, I'm trying not to give like spoilers here, but I'm so glad that you've put this content out into the world. I know that my audience, I focus on financial advisors serving them, but truly this book is so fantastic and it's great for any and everyone out there who wants to improve their listening skills. So let's get into just what we're gonna be talking about today, which is listening. Listening. And I know that that might sound just very generic, but I promise you, and I think you would agree, Matt, listening is it's not as easy as it sounds. And you've done a fantastic job of breaking this down for your readers. And really, I don't know, Matt, I think of listening as a superpower. Like it is a superpower skill that is essential really to any service-oriented field, including financial planning. So tell me a little bit, kind of your for those listening, if anyone's not familiar with you, I'm oh my gosh, gonna be so surprised. But how did you get interested in listening? Tell me a little bit about your journey, kind of what inspired like writing this book.

SPEAKER_01 3:50

Doing 3,000 interviews helped. And so, you know, I've done a little over a thousand podcasts. And then because of sales and because of being on stage and when I was a therapist and a coach, I mean, my whole existence has been really just asking questions. In fact, it'll probably surprise you. I'm way less comfortable on this side of the microphone than I am on your side of the microphone, because I'm usually the one who sits back and is absorbing stuff, right? So that was a huge thing. But but a big triggering event was talking with so my wife and I have a very good friend of ours who's a therapist. We had met her a little while ago. My wife uh met her at the dog park, surprisingly enough. And she said, Matt, I just met this woman who was like walking next to Xanax. And I'm like, Well, whoever this is, I'm in. I want to see who this is. And so her name is Heather, and she's unbelievable. And one of the things that she said when we first met was, you know, Matt, men need to understand that a lot of times they need to listen to listen, not listen to respond. Uh, being just present and consuming, like absorbing the information instead of doing what we're hardwired, not necessarily, but trained to do is solve the problem. Right. And so in that really fundamentally changed, I mean, I've been married for 25 years. I've known my wife for 30, but that was a huge leap forward in our relationship when we would sit down and she'd start talking. And I'd say, okay, Angela, am I here to just listen, or do you want me to try to solve the problem? And 99% of the time, Ashley, she said, I really just want you to hear what I'm saying, because this is how most of us process information. It's important for us to talk through it because our brain comprehends it differently. Psychologically, we know that there's been all sorts of testing done on this. And so that really, really triggered it. But the other real reason was we, we, uh, so when we rebranded to Proudmouth, we hired this guy named Rob Howard, who is he wrote a book called Fix, How to Create a Cult Brand. And he said, you know, Matt, you've achieved a level of notoriety in financial services. But if you're truly going to go ahead and hit the next level, you need to start focusing a little bit more on what really makes you tick. And he said, There's three things that you need to do. You need to get a TED talk, you need to write a book, and then you need to have your own podcast. I don't have time to do my own podcast now. I really don't because of all of the stuff that I'm doing. But I did just secure a TED talk, which I'm really, really excited about. And so I wrote the book. And so the TED Talk is actually on the periphery of listening, but that's the reason why I did it. And then Ashley when I gave myself permission to write the book, it just flowed out. It was like I couldn't write fast enough. And so yeah, that's where it came from.

SPEAKER_00 6:17

Yeah, I will say that I gobbled it up like very, very quickly. And some of it is one, I'm just genuinely like interested in like listening and how to be a better listener. I also feel like as a friend, supporter, like fan of yours, like wanting to also support you in that. But the way in which you wrote this and how you broke things out was so easily digestible. And it made me, you know, not just for me, but when I am reading books like this or other things that are, I'll I'll say client-facing. I am thinking about that client end. Like, would they be able to understand this? And, you know, now my client looks a lot different than it did when I was actively doing therapy. And so for financial advisors, reading this, I'm like, oh my gosh, like they need every single one of them, like every single financial advisor needs needs to read through this. You know, maybe let's just dive in if if we can and let's not leave everyone in suspense of like, well, what is in it? What's in it? Let's go ahead and let's talk about it. So you start out talking about this difference between listening and talking, which I really loved how you framed it. And you talked about how when we're talking, it's to control, right? Like the conversation. And listening, though, is much different. Let's just start there. Can you maybe help us understand like what is kind of that difference between like talking and listening when we're in conversation? And what should we be mindful and aware of?

SPEAKER_01 7:47

Well, I think one of the things that people don't understand about listening specifically is you're building a bridge, especially in financial services. Yeah, I've I've been in financial services since 2006, right? And so my most of my adult career has been spent working with advisors and honestly on communication. I'm just gonna digress for a moment. I helped build something called the True Wealth Institute when I worked for Peak, which was uh Carson's old consulting company, where we actually brought in top advisors and taught them how to communicate more effectively. That was the whole foundation of all of that stuff. Because I realized very quickly that advisors are always doing this. Look at me, I'm so smart. Here's my process, you're gonna love it. You know, sell, sell, sell, close, close, close. And what I found was if you say less, you're gonna close way more business. If you show somebody that you actually truly give a crap about what they're saying, taking even a farther step back, I hate active listening. I think active listening is one of the biggest damages to interpersonal relationships that have ever happened because it hypersimplifies something that is very deep and complex, which is the intention behind the listening, which is what engaged listening is, which is what I'm teaching with these seven principles in the book. But when you listen to somebody, one of the things that you're gonna find out is one, you're gonna learn a lot more about yourself. Because if you're intentionally listening and engaged in the listening process, you're gonna be like, wow, okay, so we've got this in common. This and oh my gosh, they just said this. And wow, what do I feel about that? And you have this beautiful inner dialogue that can begin that they can feel. And this is one of those things I'm not gonna get all woo-woo because I know your audience is financial advisors, as mine normally is, but there is energy transference when you're actually receptive and engaged in listening. It's totally different. And by the way, you can do it through digital means too. It's unbelievable. Just that focus, that intention can really happen. And the other thing is, I'm just gonna quote my grandmother, right? You have two ears in one mouth. You should be listening twice as much as you talk. And that is the opposite of what most advisors do. Advisors should be doing whatever they possibly can to be finding out exactly truly what their clients need, not what they want to talk about. And they don't do that. The other thing that I think is really, really important, and you talked about the format of the book, is uh so there's the concept, one of the seven different types of listening. Then there's a story that happened in my life, which are, by the way, very, very personal stories that my friends who read the book in the advanced reader copy was like, How did I not know this about you? And I'm like, well, because most of the time I'm listening, you're not asking me about me. And then number two, then they have, or number three, is then there's a practice. This is where most books drive me crazy. It's like, oh my God, what a great concept. Now what do I do with it? So I wanted people to really have a chance to practice each of the seven types of engaged listening because this is a muscle. You said it was a superpower. You don't ever get a superpower unless you practice that superpower. And I really wanted to bring that into the book too.

SPEAKER_00 10:34

I love that distinction there, right? That it is a muscle that has to be practiced. And the exercises, look, you're speaking my love language because I love a good exercise. Now, granted, I come from the therapy field, so that's really not shocking, drives I think my husband crazy. Like, let's do all the exercises, right? Um, but I love just how practical it is that we can take something that we're learning and then apply it. So you talk about these seven areas of listening, but before that, though, you talk about on the book these types of communicators, right? And tell me a little bit, let's go through maybe high-level, like five types of communicators, maybe what they are and any insights there around what we should be looking for as a good listener with these types of communicators.

SPEAKER_01 11:24

Well, I actually wrote this was part of my first book ever. So I wrote the social media handbook for financial advisors in like 2012. And I had this epiphany because I had just basically, anyway, lots of life things happened. And I was like, I was trying to figure out how I could explain to people how to interact digitally. And then I found out very quickly that it wasn't these just didn't apply digitally, they applied in the world. So the five types of communicators are this. So you've got your skydiver, right? And so these are people who, when you say, and the question, the testing question is, how are you doing? Right. And there are reasons for that inflection, which we probably don't have time to get into. But anyway, that's there's a reason why I ask it that way. They say, fine, yank, and they're gone. You're not gonna get anything else. But I want you to recognize that because if you're talking to a skydiver and you're like trying to get in, it's not going to work. Okay. Now, please also understand that this is a fluid thing. This isn't binary, this is something that people can transition between. And in the second version of this or the second level of this is the hang gliders, because these are people who 99% of the people you're going to deal with are hang gliders, right? How are you doing? I'm fine. Oh, okay. Uh, well, if you want to talk some more, I'd love to chat. So what happens is they they fly away and then they're thinking and they're like, wait a second, did Ashley just tell me they want to know more? They'll come back, right? And then they'll transition to the next time, which is water skiers. So I live in Michigan, right? So everybody water skis here. I mean this gross generalization, but like everybody water skis here, right? And uh, you know, when you're getting yanked behind a boat on skis, specifically not a tube, when you fall, it hurts, right? So you don't want to take a lot of risk and you're gonna try to stay right in the wake, right? And you're gonna stay in there and you're hold on, white knuckled for your life because you know if you let go, if you let go wrong, you're gonna hit hurt. And that's the way most people deal with interpersonal communication, is they're just trying to stay within the guardrails, they're trying to stay within the wake, right? And they don't want to fall, they don't want to take risks because they know it'll hurt. But the cool thing about it is when they do let go, and if you know how to ski, you can just very gently go into the water, which leads us to the next level, which are snorkelers. Now, snorkelers are really where I think most of us want to go because snorkelers are the kind of person who is going to dive with you, not gonna stay down for long, they're gonna come back up, right? And and I talk a lot about this in interpersonal communication because you'll notice this. I talk at about three minute blocks. This is just a personal discipline, mostly from PR training. I'm sometimes a little bit more long-winded when I'm explaining something like this, but it's because I want people to come up for air. And most people can hold their breath for maybe a minute, minute and a half. But if you're trained, you can do three to four minutes. And so when you're talking to somebody, you should only be talking for about three minutes. And that's the flow of the conversation, right? And in fact, I challenge all of you to set a damn timer, which is what I did when I was going through PR training, that is a countdown timer. You start talking, time it. And then you start building that three minute muscle. This way, what's happening is you're you're next to somebody and you got your snorkel on and you know your speedos, and you're looking at all the pretty deep stuff below, right? And you can dive down together and look at the pretty stuff together, but you know that it's just going to be for a limited period of time. This is where a lot of advisors are, right? Now, the advisors want to be snorkelers, but they're dealing with water skiers or hang gliders, right? It's important for them to realize this. Now, some of you are going to be scuba divers. Now, here's the deal: not everybody wants to be in the scuba world. Now, Ashley, you and I live in the scuba world, right? It's so easy. If somebody says, man, I'm having a rough day, keep putting on the mask. You know, you're getting all geared up the wet. So, okay, we're diving. Let's go. Okay, what are we going to talk about? That's not normal. Uh, and I we you you and I know that we're not normal when it comes to this, right? You need to test to see if people want to go to that depth because scuba divers will stay down as long as they can because that's where they want to be. There are wonderful times and places for you to do that, but that is the outlier. Your goal is to realize that most of the time you're talking to water skiers who just want to stay within the guardrails of plight conversation, maybe every once in a while test the waters to get them to become a snorkeler. And if you can figure those out very quickly with these hacks, right, just makes it easier for you to figure out who you're talking to.

SPEAKER_00 15:34

Well, I mean, and when I read through that, you know, and then thinking about just kind of the rest of the book, what I loved is that what that allows is to really set you up to know then how to listen, right? Like, how am I then listening? Like, what do I need to be doing? And not to get super nerdy here, but in in a different way, one of the theories that I love is the trans theoretical model of change and you know, the stages of change is more commonly. And, you know, we learn about that in in in therapy and how to move clients through that. But what I've always appreciated about that model is that, oh, if I just kind of know where clients are, then then I know how to be almost right. And I think, look, I think being authentic is really important. However, when we have our professional hat on and we're working with clients, there is a level of adaptability that we need to be able to have. And so these, you know, communicator like, you know, types, like really kind of being able to expand that awareness and assess, okay, where is this client? Are they a hang glider right now? Are we water skiing or not? Then it allows you to know how to show up, right? And going into kind of those seven like areas of listening, right? Then you know how to listen, which is really just an amazing formula, Matt. Thank you. Thank you for giving us the formula here with this book. So moving into right, just kind of these areas of listening. You give seven really kind of different examples here, right? Like listening to learn, listening to hold space. There's some really wonderful examples here. Can you walk us through maybe just a few that you feel like are, I know all of them are really important, but let's walk through maybe a few that you feel like really would resonate with financial advisors.

SPEAKER_01 17:10

So surprisingly enough, Ashley, it really was only gonna be one chapter, and it was all gonna really be about listening to listen, not listening to respond. Uh, and then my friend Derek, who you know, Derek Pollard, told me, dude, this isn't a book, right? So come on, we gotta, we gotta elaborate on this. And so we went on a very deep dive to find out the rest of it. But here's the thing: that's the foundation of absolutely everything. Most of us aren't listening to just listen. We're listening to respond. And this is a very dangerous thing that I think that we've had in the world. So I'll give you a quick example. You're you're talking to a client and they say something about Roth conversions. It's maybe a minute to a minute and a half into the conversation, but they're talking for another three minutes after that. You stopped listening at a minute and a half because you want to talk about Roth conversions because, well, you're an advisor and that's an important financial planning component. And it could very well be the solution to their problem. I get it, right? But you just missed the other three minutes of what could be way more important to that client than the Roth conversion, because that's only what's important to you. So this is when you really learn how to just sit back and listen, right? Now, as therapists, one of the things that I always did, and I you and I've already talked about this, is I have a pad of paper sitting next to me because what I'm doing is I will make notes, right? And I'm not writing feverishly. I will say blue dog, right? Because maybe they were bringing up a cartoon bluey or something like that. And I might want to come back to that, but I'm just doing a placeholder so that I can stop thinking about bluey, right? And I can keep listening to the client. And this is the advisors don't do this. They're like writing everything down, or they've they don't have to do it because they've got an AI note taker. That doesn't help. Now that helps, trust me, that helps with tasks and all the other things. And please, dear God, if you're not using one of those compliant things, you're really, really missing out. But for us, it's really just to listen to listen. Listen to the entire thing, wait, pause. And this is another big thing in the book as I talk about the five-second rule, right? Or what I call the dramatic pause. When somebody is done talking, our natural inclination is to fill that space, to start talking immediately. Give them a second to catch up to what just came out of their flipping mouth and give yourself the second to just really process. And so this process of one of the exercises we talk about is somebody gets done talking and you're going to you're gonna wait. You're gonna take a nice deep breath through your nose and you're gonna exhale through your mouth. Now, you're not gonna go because you don't want to be a creep, right? But you're a nice gentle breath. And that takes about five seconds for that cycle. Now, I recommend you count to practice. And Ashley, and you know this, right? But what happens next is unbelievable because you're going to make that space just long enough to set your client at a little bit of discomfort because they're wondering why you're not talking, and you're giving them the space to continue talking. And what I have found, and there is researching with motivational interviewing and some of the other things that you and I have studied. I know that if I can do that twice, where we get to from where we began is actually what they want to talk about and their real pain points. Two five-second breaks is going to get somebody to truly tell you what they need. Now, full disclosure, I use this in the sales process all the time. I do all the sales for our company, 100% of them. I don't need to sell ever. Now, do I ask for business? Do I close business? Absolutely. But I let them figure out where their pain points are, and then I address those specific pain points. But what most of you are doing is somebody says, Well, you know, I came in because I need to worry about taxes. Okay, taxes, raw conversion, blah, blah, blah, trust, blah, blah, blah. And you're already processing all of this stuff, but that is just the presenting issue. You need to find out why that is so important to them. And the only way that you can do that is first through space. So listening to listen and not listening to respond is the most important premise of the entire book. The other most important premise is the intention behind your listening. And this is why there are seven different types of listening, because you know, you can be listening to persuade. And a lot of people don't really get that, right? If my intention is to try to take you from point A to point B, I can do that by not saying a damn thing or by using very simple things like redirection, rephrasing, and refrain, right? Which are therapeutic techniques that, by the way, everybody in sales should know this. Uh, everybody in consultation should know this. And you can do this very, very easy. And it's they're just very gentle nudges in different directions in order to get them to start moving in the direction that you know. Because here's the deal, Ashley, and you know this better than anybody as a therapist. You walk in, you fill out the intake form, right? We all had the intake form, right? Uh, within usually about 30 minutes, I know everything that's wrong. You I mean, I know exactly what course we need to take because you and I are very experienced with that. Advisors are the same way. People walk in and they're like, Well, shit, you're 55 years old. I I know exactly what your problems are because I've done this a hundred times. You need To get them to make the realization. That is one of the greatest, powerful techniques that you can do with listening, is by that gentle guidance when they say, Oh my God, taxes aren't my biggest issue. I'm terrified that when I sell my business for $40 million, my wife's gonna leave me. Oh, now we're at a very different conversation than we had in the past.

SPEAKER_00 22:19

That's a much different conversation.

SPEAKER_01 22:21

I might want to bring in my friend Ashley to help you with this. That's something that's very, very, very important for us to really get to the philosophical underpinnings of what's going on. And that can only be done through this.

SPEAKER_00 22:31

Hey friends, we'll be right back with the episode. But before we do, I wanted to take a quick second to let you know about what we do at Beyond the Plan and how we support financial advisors who are committed to growth. At Beyond the Plan, we specialize in integrating financial and client psychology to enhance your advisory practice. From client meeting facilitation, advisor training and coaching, even client onboarding strategies, we are your implementation partner and dedicated in-house expert. Visit our website at beyondthefp.com to learn more about our services and how we can collaborate to elevate your practice. Together, let's go beyond the plan to deliver meaningful client experiences that foster long-lasting relationships. Now, back to the episode. Listen, I don't think we could have a whole other episode swapping like war stories around like clinical training. Uh uh, I'm pretty sure we could. But I distinctly remember there being a lot of emphasis on getting comfortable with silence. Getting comfortable with silence really goes hand in hand, right, with listening. But look, I don't know about you, but it took me a while to get comfortable with that five-second rule, that pause, there being silence and not filling it with my own solutions, my own just voice talking to talk. I learned very quickly about myself that silence made me anxious. And there was a lot that I had to work through in order to be not only just a good listener, but a good clinician and really just like a good person, like a good relationship partner, right? To any, to anyone. So I'd love to hear just kind of your thoughts because I would imagine that there are, and I've heard this just in my consultations, right? That silence is uncomfortable. Pausing, not saying anything, you know, thinking like, well, clients expect me to say something. And if I'm just sitting here and I'm quiet, like, ah, like help me out here. Tell me, kind of guide me through what are your thoughts there around how advisors, how people can get comfortable with that silence, if it does make them anxious.

SPEAKER_01 25:01

It absolutely makes everybody anxious, right? Uh we don't, it's not part of our societal norms. It's always, we always have to be being filled with stimulus. And that's why when you do this, you look so much different than anybody else that they're interacting with. You're giving them that space, that space to process what they said, to feel what just came out of their mind and their mouth and their heart, and just really sit with that. And so there, it's an iterative process. And this is very important to understand. Very few of you are going to be able to, I'll wait you out for 30 seconds. Like I'm evil because I I mean, because I love silence. I I mean, I crave silence in my life and I build it into my day so that I will literally sit in my chair at my desk and nothing will be happening. And I'll just sit there and I'll I mean, part of it's meditation. I'm a big fan of that, but I love that stillness and that quiet because I think it's very centering. So so here's here's a great process for all of the advisors listening to this to re really be able to build up to five seconds. Because first off, five seconds is way longer than you flip and think it is. All right. So the first one is try to do it just once. Try to do it for a second. And then if they don't feel that silence, here's what you're gonna do. Tell me more. Even better, I believe, is tell me more about that. And now there's a really specific rationale behind the word that, because I am not telling them what I want them. Tell me more about your feelings about this. No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm asking wildly open-ended questions because that to Matt might not be what Ashley needs to talk about. So if I direct Ashley and I say, tell me more about your feelings about, you know, the current political system. Okay, well, well, first of all, that's a terrible question. Don't ever get asked that at all. But tell me more about that. Then what they're gonna do is they're gonna chase the rabbits that they need to chase. Because I might be thinking, well, wow, Ashley really wants to talk about this. And then I say, tell me more about that. And all of a sudden you go in a totally different direction. Whoa, buckle up, buttercup, because we're on to something now, right? And I really want to feel where they're headed. And then you just delay that tell me more. And that's the easiest way to do this. Now, I also really believe that the breathing exercise really, really helps. I mean, if you look at any major spiritual foundation, breath work is wildly important. Prayer, meditation, all of those things, learning how to breathe, kind of control that that structure is very, very centering. But tell me more or tell me more about that. Now, the other things, and I talk about this in the book. Do you mind if I tell a quick story? Go for it, please. So I had just gotten back from learning this from a guy named George Kinder. Now, we had learned it in therapy, but he had contextualized it because my clients were financial advisors, and it was just I love five-second rule. We had always just talked about in grad school was just you have to be comfortable with silence. And I'm like, well, that doesn't really help me very much. Like, how do I put this into practice? Because I'm that guy. So I came home. This was the longest I'd ever been away from my wife. We had I had twins, and I was gone for a solid week in Estes Park, Colorado, which by the way was unbelievably gorgeous. And I called her every day. We had cell phones, early ones, and I called her every single cell to talk to my kids every day because that was part of George's program. Check in, check in with your family. And uh, and so I get home. I got home late. My kids were already in bed. So I went down, I kissed him. I actually woke him up because I'm that guy. So dad told me, like, great, they were out again. And so my wife and I went outside and sat on our back porch and I said, Tell me about your week. And it happened, right? And so and she would stop and I go, Okay, space, bam, 20 minutes later. Wow, bam. And all of a sudden, two and a half hours pass. And I'm not excited, I make sure I checked this with my wife recently. Well, because she proofread the book, and she's like, I totally remember that happening. Now, you might have exaggerated a little bit, which I never exaggerate, but whatever. So we get done, and it was it was late, and I was already pretty tired. And she's like, Okay, you know, hey, let's go to bed. And I'm like, Yeah. So, you know, we get up and we're about to go back into our house. She grabs the handle and she turns to me and she goes, What the hell happened to you in Estes Park? That was the best conversation we've ever had. I didn't say anything for two and a half hours. And it was the best conversation we ever had. Oh my God, how you've been looking at conversation wrong really from the beginning of the world. And so that is why this five-second rule, this listening to listen, is just so incredibly important. And you're gonna have much happier clients for it.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

Yeah, I love that. I love that story. Clayton and I have a similar one, only it landed him a wife. You know, great listening on our first date. I left our first date and was like, and I'm marrying him. Uh we're he's the one. Uh literally called my mom after that and told her I was like, Yep, he's the one. I'm done. Yep. Great listening skills can land you a wife, or the best conversation with your partner there too. Okay, so we've talked a lot about communicator types, right? Which is so helpful. And we've talked then a little bit about really the essence of listening. What does it kind of all boil down to, right? Listening, you know, not to respond there, but listening to listen. So there are several other just kind of gems, like nuggets that you have sprinkled out through the book that really touch on tone and like pitch and like kind of these other maybe things that I think are helpful cues or indicators that we can grab onto that help us know, okay, how are they communicating? How am I communicating to be a good listener? Can you walk us through some of those here for us?

SPEAKER_01 30:16

I have to say that so I've done about a bunch of these on the book. You're the first person who's ever asked me that question.

SPEAKER_00 30:21

Are you surprised, Matt? Are you surprised?

SPEAKER_01 30:24

I'm not surprised at all because I love you dearly and I love how your brain works. This is one of my favorite things in the whole wide world to talk about. Because if you're not paying attention to pace, pentameter, volume, and inflection, you've missed everything in all conversation. Everything. So let's break some of those down, right? So you've all heard the greatest speakers ever: John F. Kennedy, Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, Howard Stern, Oprah Winfrey, Maya Angelou. If you listen to how their cadence, right? So how they're pacing their speech and speaking, where they're putting their intonation, right? Where they're building in space, this tells you absolutely everything. And this is a very difficult thing to practice, but I really want you to practice is pay attention to one of those four, right? So let's talk about pace. Pace is the speed in which one talks. Okay. I know that if you speed up, you're excited about something. If that I'm hypersimplifying it, right? And if you're slowing down, you're slowing down because you want me to really absorb what you're saying, right? Okay, so that's pace. Pentameter is the bump, ba, bump, ba, bump, ba, bump, bab, bump part, right? That's a lot of us professional speakers, Ashley, you're a professional keynote speaker. I am too. When I'm on stage, there's absolutely a very, very, very specific cadence pentameter that I'm using to continue to keep people's, you know, attention. Because you're speaking for 45 minutes straight. I got to keep their attention. That is so vital in interpersonal communication. Because if I pause, if I stop, if I break that pacing, there's something there. I just gave you a huge clue that my brain skipped and I need to talk more about that, or you need to bring that out of me. And in fact, I even bring that up. Ashley, do this all the time in interviews, but I'll say, you just said something there. And in the middle of that, like you stopped. Like you did that. What was going on? I'm not saying what was going on, but Ashley, I have deepened relationships with that one thing so exponentially with people, it's unbelievable. Okay, so pace pentameter, volume. If I'm getting louder, I'm probably pretty excited about something. But if also if I'm getting quieter, those are those lean-in moments. And so many of you don't even do that. In fact, that's one of the nicest things you can do to somebody. If you're in a client meeting and they start getting quieter because they're thinking they're being reflective, they're pausing a lot, they're not making eye contact. If you lean in, like literally physically lean in and they look up and you're closer to them, you have just changed your relationship dynamic with those people. Okay. And and these are things why this isn't taught in Sandler sales training or, you know, all of the sales training that most advisors have had to go through, I don't, I don't understand. All right. So pace, spentameter, volume, and then inflection. Inflection is the rising and the lowering of your voice, right? This is a little bit more difficult and takes a little bit more practice to figure out. But if my inflection, if I'm talking and I get really high and I'm staying up and there's you need to be paying very close attention. But the other thing is the big contrast. So when I get really high because I'm excited about something, and then if I get lower and I talk in my other, there's something there. And here's the thing the subtext of what's not being said is so much more important than what's actually being said if you start paying attention to these four things. And honestly, I mean you could stop recording right now because uh, you know, if you just implement the five-second rule and if you start listening to or start practicing and listening to pace mentameter, volume, and inflection, you have now just leveled up as an advisor. Not just an advisor, you've leveled up as a human because you start doing this stuff on people you love or even people you don't love, it's gonna change absolutely everything.

SPEAKER_00 34:01

I love, I appreciate you walking through all of this. And look, you and I are on the same link there in terms of I wish that it were talked, taught, taught, and talked about more. And where I have found it most helpful, not just clinically, but also in consulting and coaching with advisors is pointing those points out of hey, when we were meeting with that couple, did you notice how the wife, when she was explaining why it's difficult to cut back in some of those spending areas, that her voice got really, really, really high and her eyes got really wide. And like those are cues that was a very clear indication that she was getting frustrated and upset. And we need to catch that earlier and intervene because had we done that, right, then we could have head off, you know, maybe you know, some tension there or conflict, right? So I love that you walked through all this because I know that they are immensely helpful just in all relationships, certainly like, you know, in doing clinical work, but even for advisors, oh my goodness, you know, the amount of times that I've I've heard advisors leave like meetings and they're like, gosh, like I just don't know what happened. I'm like, well, I like what, you know, like what were some of like what were they doing? What did they look like? Their facial expressions, their voice, right? The pacing, right? The pitch, like what was all of that there? Because those are literally the signs that they give you on a silver platter that tell you what's going on for them and then how to respond. So look, I'm I am in agreement. We could, we could stop, we could, you know, hit end record. And if everyone just did the five second rule and implemented, you know, practicing looking for those things, like oh, they would, how did you say it, level up as a human?

SPEAKER_01 35:56

Oh, level up as a human. Absolutely. You know, I mean, that that's something that I think a lot of, you know, most advisors are, you know, coach heavy, right? You know, they have performance coaches and they've got personal coaches, you know, all the practice management coaches. This is really how you level up in all aspects of your life. You're giving yourself the opportunity to learn how to communicate more effectively. There is nothing, in my opinion, more important in the world than learning how to actually communicate more effectively with our fellow human beings, right? And so few of you ever practice it. There's one practice that I really want people to do. Are you okay with me? Can I do that?

SPEAKER_00 36:32

I'm not gonna tell you no. So just by the way, yeah. Well, I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01 36:36

I really appreciate that. Okay. I was on a men's dating podcast. So uh you have to understand when you write a book, your ultimate goal is to get your book in front of your ideal reader. And my ideal reader is men under 40. Hands down, that's that is it, because men are horrific at listening. Nobody's ever taught them how to do it. And so I I made a ridiculous cover of the book to make people stop. And I tried to write it in a way that dudes would be like, okay, uh, it's because it's fast, right? Most people read this in two, two and a half hours, right? And even if you're a slow reader, you're at three. So I wrote it very specifically to that audience. And so I'm this guy was horrible, horrible, by the way, podcast host. Um, I probably talked a third, maybe a quarter of the time. He talked the rest of the time. And I just thought to myself, Am I a guest on this show? But anyway, I digress. So here's what happened. He said, Hey, Matt, there's an exercise in your book that I really think the dating world would love. Like, I know which one. And so here's what you're gonna do. If you're single, this is gonna be a date. If you're with a significant other, this is a date. One of the super funnest things you can possibly do. So you're gonna go to a busy place, coffee shop, restaurant, airport, don't care, right? And and when you get your table, you're gonna sit next to each other, not across from each other. You're gonna sit next to each other. Both of you are gonna have a piece of paper and a pen, and you're going to agree that you are going to eavesdrop on some relation, some conversation around you. Okay. You're gonna, okay. So here's what you're gonna do, and you're gonna agree to it. My favorite thing is to try to find couples because I this I'm I love that. I mean, I was a therapist. This just makes me happy. Father, son, husband, daughter, well, you know, father, what, whatever, whatever. It doesn't matter. Just you need to agree. Okay, so we're we're, you know, and you're not gonna be like, oh, I'm gonna look at you. No, you're gonna try to use as coy as possible, right? And so what you're gonna do is you're not gonna stare at them because you don't want to be creepy, but you're gonna hyper focus your listening. Now, I'm I'm telling you to do this for two reasons. Number one, because this is highly trainable, your ears, if you're listening to this only. And and you can tune everything else out and only listen to one conversation as you practice this. It's a very powerful skill, superpower, as you said before. So that's a huge piece of why I want all of you to do this, because there's so much noise in the world. Being able to hyperfocus on something is a very good thing to do. And then what you're gonna do is you're gonna answer three questions. Ready? First one, what is the nature of the relationship? So you're gonna try to suss out the nature of the relationship. Number two, what are they talking about and why are they talking about it? And then number three, what do you think they both want out of the conversation? And the number three is so much fun. And so you're gonna just take notes and you're gonna set a timer. This is important, about 15 minutes. That's all. 10 to 15 minutes. And you're gonna sit there and you're gonna listen, you're gonna write down, you're not gonna look at what your partner's writing down. You're gonna just write stuff down. And then the timer goes off. The you or the other person, I recommend that it's you, gets up and gets to the other side of the table. Okay, so that you don't look, you know, weird or whatever. So you're gonna be at a normal couple's position. And so here, here's actually what the dating guy said. He said, so he stopped me right there. And I'm like, dude, I'm not done yet. Um, but anyway, he goes, That's the best dating advice I've heard in 15 years. And I was like, the listening thing? He's like, no, sit next to them instead of across from them. And I'm like, oh my God, dude, you're a freaking dating coach and you haven't thought about how when you're sitting across from somebody, it's an antagonistic, you know, uh, you know, there's space in between you. I'm like, oh my God, dude, you're the worst dating coach ever if you don't think that that anyway, whatever. So anyway, so then what you're gonna do is you're gonna compare notes, right? And you're gonna answer those three questions. You are going to wanna do this on every date because it is so much fun. Because especially if there's a gender difference, right? How you perceive those conversations is gonna be unbelievably eye-opening. So my wife and I have done this. I've done this with friends of mine. Um, and and so I, you know, I I'm I think I'm pretty attuned to stuff, not necessarily, because I'm wrong a lot. And I thought the power dynamic was totally different. And and my my wife had said, oh my God, no, that that guy was entirely gaslighting her. He was trying to manipulate the conversation. And I was, and after she said that, I was like, oh my God, oh my God. Anyway, it's a wonderful learning experience, and it's a great way for you to practice actually listening, not the seven types of listening, but just actually learning how to listen and then compare notes on how well you listen.

SPEAKER_00 40:49

I think that this exercise is so fantastic. I would caution people, I love that you said set a timer because I do this naturally. I can't help it. It was probably one of those early signs that I should have seen coming as to I'm, you know, maybe destined in the clinical space, but I I do this quite naturally. And I will also then add and make up stories about people as well, like to fill in the gaps. And I enjoy doing it and then relaying all of this to Clayton later. And he's like, How do you know all that? I'm like, Well, duh, isn't it obvious? I was listening and they said this, and like that's how I know like all these things about these people that I actually don't even know their names. Like, I don't know their names, uh, but like this is what's going on for them. So please set a timer because if you do this at an airport, it may and you get really involved in it, you could end up missing your flight because you become so engrossed in listening and trying to understand. So now that that's not none of that's you know ever happened to me before, but please set a timer so that you know when to stop and get on your flight. That would be my my only tip here for this exercise. Yeah, to follow, to follow that. Matt, thank you so much for all of your wisdom, all of the gems. Now I know where to find you. I'm well versed in like how do I find you and get in touch with you. But can you share with everyone listening here where can people find you? Where do you like to hang out? Where can they buy this amazing book of yours that you've written?

SPEAKER_01 42:15

Well, you can go to your independent bookstore and ask them to order it. It's shut the F Up and Listen. That's by me. I love it if you did that, uh, because I'm a huge fan of supporting local small businesses that are family owned. But if you want Jeff Bezos to make more money, you literally have to type in shut the F Up and Listen book. Please complete the sentence. Because if you don't, some really surprising things show up. And I really ask you to just have fun with that because oh my God, there's been a couple of books recently that have come out that have the shut the F up and didn't have the rest. And you're gonna be maybe offended. I don't really know. But anyway, I'm on LinkedIn. So LinkedIn is where I spend a lot of my time. And you can DM me on LinkedIn pretty easily. Um, I'm also on pretty much everything else as Matt Halloran author. So you can find me on TikTok, on Instagram, Facebook, and all of those places. I don't don't spend as much time. I mean, I spend a lot of time on TikTok, but um I I spend most of my time professionally. So if you're a financial advisor who really wants to learn how to listen better, uh, you know, go ahead and and you know, follow me on LinkedIn. I'd love it if people bought the book. I don't plan on becoming rich off the book, but my my ultimate goal is to just teach people that if they do just shut the F up and listen, their life's gonna be a lot better.

SPEAKER_00 43:23

I love that. We'll make sure that we include all of those links there for people to check out. Thank you to everyone out there listening for allowing Matt and I into your ears and into your mind today. If you found value in today's episode, I would love to stay connected with you, as would Matt. Uh so please reach out to him on LinkedIn or you could also follow me on LinkedIn. I hang out there quite a bit myself sharing insights on the human side of planning. You can also head over to my website at www.beondthefp.com and subscribe to our monthly newsletter where we share insights, all things around the human side of planning. And you know, don't forget to follow the show. I feel like that's something that I hear a lot of people say, like, oh, it's a great episode. Like, hey, follow the show, planning and beyond, wherever you get your podcasts. Because here's the cool thing when you follow the show, you never miss an episode like this one that Matt and I are recording right now. But most importantly, remember, my friends, that finances don't have feelings, but your clients do. So until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going beyond. Thanks for joining me on this episode of Planning and Beyond. I hope you found today's insights valuable and inspiring for both your practice and your personal growth. If you enjoy the show, please subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. Your feedback helps us reach more advisors like you who are dedicated to making a difference. For more resources, tips, and to continue the conversation, visit our website at beyondthefp.com. You'll find articles, tools, and information about upcoming episodes designed to support your journey and practice. Stay connected with us on social media and never miss an update. Follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn. And remember, the best way to grow is to keep learning and sharing. Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going beyond.