SPEAKER_02 0:00

What are some of the obstacles that you see that get in the way of couples being able to achieve this level of financial intimacy?

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Can you say kids?

SPEAKER_02 0:13

Kids.

SPEAKER_00 0:14

I'm just gonna I'm joking. I'm joking yellow. I'm joking yellow. Let's blame it on the kids. The kids just take up so much damn time that it's a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

Welcome to Planning and Beyond. The public must where financial advising meets the art of meaningful conversations. I'm your host, Ashley Kwan, as a certified financial behavior specialist and a passionate advocate for personal growth. I'm here to help you elevate your practice and deepen your connections with clients. In each episode, we dive into the intersection of psychology, therapy, and financial advising. You'll discover practical strategies, insightful stories, and expert interviews that will empower you to not only excel in your profession, but also thrive in your personal life. Again, we'll explore the human side of financial cleaning. From understanding clean emotions to mastering the nuances of effective communication. Get ready to transform your practice and yourself. This is Planning and Beyond. Welcome to Planning and Beyond, where financial planning meets human understanding. I'm your host, Ashley Kwamey. Today I'm thrilled to be joined by my colleague and friend, Ed Combs, owner of Healthy Love and Money. As a licensed marriage and family therapist, financial therapist, and a CFP, parentheses here, a unicorn, a professional unicorn. Ed has quite the perspective on how you can help couples and yourself develop deeper financial intimacy. Ed, welcome to the show, my friend. So glad you're here.

SPEAKER_00 2:08

Ashley, this has been a long time coming. I'm so thrilled for all the work you're doing with your podcast and more importantly, the support you're providing for financial advisors. I know there's so many great ones out there that are looking to level up. And I think working with you is one of the best investments they can make. So I'm thrilled to be here and help you with that.

SPEAKER_02 2:24

Well, thank you, my friend. I do, I do appreciate it. I know you well. You and I have been connected for a little while here. But if you could maybe take us on a little adventure, an adventure in the life of Ed. And maybe share with us. I spouted off your credentials. Uh there kind of there. Can you just take us on a little adventure, walk us through how, at least professionally, like how did you get here to where we are now?

SPEAKER_00 2:56

Well, it starts with the burning building. See, what people don't always know is that I used to run into burning buildings and get paid for it. I was a professional firefighter. And when I wasn't running into burning buildings, I listened to the guys talk about their wives and money. And what I really discovered in that experience when I was a young man is that there was really two paths. There were the guys that talked confidently and happily about their marriages and their money. And then there were the guys that were talking about their wives and money, and they were quite frustrated and confused and disappointed. And that had this visual memory of one guy working through bankruptcy and having all the papers on the kitchen table of the firehouse. Now, as a 19, 20, 21-year-old young man, that was quite impressionable. But I also, and financial planners will really appreciate this one is there was a guy named Clark who came to the firehouse and he did 403B plans for the firefighters. And so Clark sat and explained to me how investing works, showed me the nine-style box for different asset classes, and said, Ed, how much do you want to save? And so I set up my 403B plan, started saving money, and was like, someday I'm gonna be a millionaire. This will all work out. You know, and so this is the start of learning about the field of financial advising and guidance. And it was a really positive experience. And I left firefighting to pursue this career of being a financial planner because I start to realize like, oh, Clark's making a lot of money. When I think about all the people he was working with, and like, oh, these financial planners, they they got it figured out. They make a lot of money, they like they get to work with money, they get to help people. This sounds great. So off I left firefighting. There's a lot of other reasons we can talk about on another podcast episode. But professionally, I thought I'm gonna be a financial planner. And then I learned the harsh reality that I didn't know anything about financial planning outside of what I read from Susie Orman, David Bach, Dave Ramsey, and a few others in that class. You know, this is back in the early 2000s, those were the big names. I don't know who the big names are now when you're just getting started, but maybe meet Sathy or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 4:50

He might be the big name.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

Dreams come true. But anyhow, I ended up in a sales role slinging whole life insurance very unsuccessfully for about three months, and then went to work at Vanguard Mutual Funds. And let's just say going from running into burning buildings to sitting in a cubicle every day, that was a tough transition. But I got to learn a lot about the investments. I got my MBA, I got my CFP, all with this idea. I want to help people with their money. And as I got more knowledge and I got married and I tried to talk to my wife about what she should do with her money, listen to the phrase what she should do with her money. Uh, you know, you're nodding, you're smiling. Yes, I get you. And I I heard you. Um she very rightly pushed back, didn't like all my ideas. And I was quite confused because I'm the MBA CFP, you're the dentist, I'm the business guy. This is how we're gonna make the most money. Your career is gonna be very profitable. Let's set this up. And oh, by the way, there was a bunch of other family dynamics around divorce and alimony and siblings not being very financially successful. And and so we didn't read about any of that crap in the MBA program or the CFP, like this human side of money. And so I just had this idea that therapists know how people work. So I went back to school to become a couples therapist, naively thinking, if I just learn how couples work, then financial conversations are going to be great. Well, I learned all kinds of things about mental health and couples and how to help them get along better. Fantastic information, but not once did we talk about how to help couples move through a financial conflict or difference. I mean, we talked about infidelity, we talked about sexual functioning, we talked about the classic communication problems, which is a global statement. But man, there was just no space to really get into like what I knew now were the complexities of money for couples. Fortunately, I got out and found the Financial Therapy Association, which was just getting started, and got involved with that group and spent the last 10 years working with the Financial Therapy Association in volunteer roles, went to Kansas State to get a third master's degree in financial planning. I researched attachment theory. Now, this is a psychological framework that we use in therapy, so we can talk more about that. But it has been quite an adventurous journey of one thing unfolding after the next. And so now in my professional role, I closed my couples therapy practice down two years ago. I came back, set up my own RIA as Healthy Love and Money. I have an active blog, I have an active podcast, social media presence. And our mission at Healthy Love and Money is to help couples develop financial intimacy. And the mechanisms that we go about doing that is through our financial planning process or through financial therapy. So as an organization, we're laser focused on how to bring counseling psychology and therapy and financial planning together to help facilitate change for couples that manifest in financial intimacy.

SPEAKER_02 7:40

I love all of like all of that. My, you know, therapist heart wants to explode, right? Hearing kind of that last line there, you know, we are laser focused at helping couples build financial intimacy. I'm gonna ignore though the statement earlier that you made with regards to what Ann should do with her money. We might come back to that. I'll put that comment aside.

SPEAKER_00 8:05

Bring it off the shelf when it's right. But yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll come back to that.

SPEAKER_02 8:10

Yes, yes. We will come back to that. What I want to maybe kind of jump into next is you know, financial intimacy, it's not very well known within the mental health couple space, but also within the financial planning space as well. And so maybe before we dive in, let's kind of help those that are listening right now. Can we talk high-level like what is financial intimacy? What does that really mean?

SPEAKER_00 8:43

Yeah, absolutely. And I I will say, right, it's not talked about in the field of mental health or couples therapy. It's not talked about in financial planning, and it's not talked about in general society. Those two words do not exist together in language. People are not Google searching in any high volume of traffic financial intimacy. I need more financial intimacy. There are people out there, there's plenty of people searching for sexual intimacy, and there's plenty of people searching for emotional intimacy, but financial intimacy, no one's searching for that. And there's a lot of reasons for that. We live in a very complicated historical context where men and women have been seen very differently in their roles around money and their relationship to each other and what they're responsible for. It's created great divides, great, great problems between the genders. So we have this large historical context that blocks couples from even thinking that this would be something they could really embrace and do well together. There is no financial orgasm out there. I mean, I just said it on this podcast, and I know some people were squirming. I hope the kids weren't listening. But that experience of talking about your money together as a couple being magnifying and really deeply gratifying, mind-blowing for a lot of folks. So let's talk about what is financial intimacy. It's far more than financial transparency. Financial transparency is a level of comfort of letting your partner know how much money you're you're making or not making, how much is in the bank account, how much is in the investment account, how much is on the credit cards, right? You're kind of your full balance sheet. This is a group of financial planners, you know what I'm talking about. And you know how many of your couples like, wait, what? Huh? As you're gathering all that data. That's part of what stops a lot of couples, I think, from pursuing financial planning is they know that in order to develop a good financial plan, consciously or unconsciously, I'm gonna have to share all my financial information with this person, but that means my spouse is now gonna know what's going on. I mean, you do any short search of like financial infidelity or like should I share financial information? The statistics are pretty bad, like 40 to 60, 70 percent. I don't even think it's a thing to share financial information. So this is that financial transparency, which is one piece of financial intimacy, but what really matters in financial intimacy is emotional safety and connection. Do I feel safe sharing my hopes, my dreams, my aspirations with you about what I want to accomplish and the money that it's gonna take to do that? But can I also share when I feel scared or anxious or ashamed about something that's going on? And this is where couples end up getting in a lot of trouble and a lot of division and commit financial infidelity is they've done something that either they personally feel like is shameful or unacceptable, or culturally is defined as unacceptable and they're afraid of being rejected by their partner for this act. Which then means that they often can be stuck in a cycle of continuing to perpetuate this problem of not talking about how much they're spending or not earning because it it evokes such psychological distress. This comes back to this attachment theory that I referenced earlier. Fundamental to human uh need is uh relational connectedness. And when that's under threat, oh man, the gloves come off. So financial intimacy is really so much more than sharing numbers, it's about sharing our our longings and our hopes and our dreams, our fears and our anxieties. But that's at the individual level. It's about being able to hear that from our partner, it's about being able to negotiate those things together collaboratively in a way that we both feel magnified, not in a win-lose situation, which is the way most of us are conditioned to think about money.

SPEAKER_01 12:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:22

It's a competition. I mean, we live in a capitalist society where we're focused on making more and winning the game. And so that view gets transmuted into the intimate relationship as couples are trying to navigate money where the general view, I think, for most people about intimate relationships is ideally we should be collaborative and loving and safe and trustworthy with each other. But we we're not differentiating at the market mindset that we bring into our intimate relationship in most cases. So that's a really long, robust definition.

SPEAKER_02 12:54

But I think you had a lot of great points there around financial intensity, it is not just being transparent and showing what's on the spreadsheet, right? It's about being vulnerable, it's about getting financially naked with your partner, right? And that's not easy to do. As I said, there's a vulnerability piece to it. And you and I both know we're not wired to be vulnerable as humans. That's just not something that our brain says, Yep, let me sign up and do. Let me let me put myself in a situation here with the person that I love most, and expose myself in this way where I could be hurt, rejected, what have you.

SPEAKER_00 13:44

Criticized.

SPEAKER_02 13:45

Right, exactly. And developing, creating good financial or healthy financial intimacy requires you to do that. So if we have this kind of picture of what financial intimacy is from your perspective, what are some of the obstacles that you see that get in the way of couples being able to achieve this level of financial intimacy?

SPEAKER_00 14:12

Can you say kids?

SPEAKER_02 14:14

Kids.

SPEAKER_00 14:14

I'm just gonna I'm joking, y'all. I'm joking, y'all. Let's blame it on the kids. The kids just take up so much damn time that it's impossible. Sorry, y'all.

SPEAKER_01 14:25

It just went over my head.

SPEAKER_00 14:27

If y'all get to know me, that's a dad joke. And uh sometimes they land really well, and sometimes the people are like, what did he just say? So, you know, this is Ed, guys. This is the real me. No, but in all seriousness, like we can look at and name a lot of things that may block us from being able to talk about our finances. But I think there's probably a couple really common themes or factors. One, we've never seen it in action. Like every couple that I talked to and I asked them, Did you see your parents talk lovingly and openly about finances with each other where there was mutual respect and care? Have yet to have someone say yes and be able to tell me a story of that. I've had a few people say, I'm like, um, my therapist radar says that's a no. Right? So we don't see that modeled in our families growing up. We don't have a cultural expectation of that. We certainly don't see it in social media. We certainly don't see it in any of the movies that we watch. And so I don't think that people really know what this looks like or what it might feel like to have someone deeply listen to you about what's going on with non-judgment, with no recommendations, no advice, right? That whole control, like this is I'll pull it back off the shelf for a moment, is like, and we're talking to financial planners on this podcast. So y'all are the experts on what people should do with money. People pay you a lot of money to tell them what to do with money. The challenge is your spouse does not see you fully as that. The first thing they see is you as their spouse. The one that leaves hair in the drain of the shower, the one that leaves the dun, dirty underwear in the bathroom floor, the one that yelled at the kids earlier, the one that didn't plan the romantic dinner. Whatever it is that's y'all's deal, they're seeing all that stuff while you're sitting next to them trying to go over the spreadsheet and plan for the future. And I'm gonna name it that I think on the whole, financial planners are far more financially anxious group. That I don't have any empirical evidence of this. Just my general sense, hanging out with a lot of financial planners and watching some of the stuff that gets said in certain Facebook groups. There's a lot of anxiety about money.

SPEAKER_02 16:36

Well, we do have some research that Klaunz has done around from a money script standpoint, though, that generally financial advisors are more vigilant and you could, could, right? It might be a stretch. It could be understood where that vigilance could translate to anxiety. So, you know, I don't think that that's a far, don't think that's a far stretch there.

SPEAKER_00 16:58

And look, I think that this is part of what makes financial planners valuable in the study is you're putting to use your anxiety in a constructive way. The problem is it doesn't get named as that. And so this is part of also if we pull back those layers of like why do couples actually struggle to talk about money. So we're gonna say there's no cultural or familial modeling of this. But moreover, is what we've seen is a lot of painful interactions around talking about money. And painful interactions goes one of two ways. And this the first one's gonna be very obvious to people. It's the criticism, it's the open fight, it's the open contempt. But what people miss is the negative or the absent side of it is there was no money talk. It was silent. So, no, I didn't no, there was no money fights. Okay, whether was there proactive money conversations? No, we just didn't talk about it. Well, that is a money fight of money avoidance, right? And so it's the the quietest fight you've ever never heard. And that was the pattern that my wife and I really were stuck in. And you know, people might be familiar with that language of conflict avoidant, right? We were both conflict avoidant individuals. We both of our families grew up in families where people just swept differences under the rug and tried to to bite the bullet, so to speak. That leads to a lot of passive, aggressive, resentful behavior.

SPEAKER_02 18:17

Well, I'm I mean, you're kind of you're there's a lot here. A lot here, my friend. Right. And I'm I guess what I'm just kind of maybe what's coming up in my head and what I'm wondering is from an obstacle standpoint, we're talking about modeling, which you know, you and I, you know, know, right, that that is important when it comes to how we come to do relationships in adulthood, whether that's with other humans, whether that's with money, what have you? I'm just wondering, though, from a financial advisor standpoint, because you were bringing up, you know, the story about you and your wife, like with money. Can advisors help clients bridge that gap with financial intimacy if they maybe haven't bridged that gap in their own relationship?

SPEAKER_00 19:13

I think, I mean, we we talked a little bit about this in the pre-show, and there's I was probably a little strong on the pre-show on that. The answer, oh man, you're gonna appreciate this, Ashley. So the Healthy Love and Money team has grown recently, and we've added a woman by the wonderful woman by the name of Mary Lou Daly and another one by the name of Dr. Christine Hargrove, and I'm so thrilled to have them on the team. They're both incredible people. But Mary Lou comes from deep from the deep financial planning side of things. And we were talking recently, and she said, in financial planning world, we want it black and white. It's either this or it's that, right? We're not looking for gray space, we're looking to make a decision and move on, it is what I was taking from it. And so I do think that like we can want to have things be black and white with like, can you help other people even if you're own struggle in your own marriage to talk about money? The answer is yes, you you actually can. Right? Couples therapists are helping people all the time, and sometimes their lives are the biggest train wrecks. Right now, hopefully good therapists are doing their own work and continuing to heal and grow and strengthen their relationships and their psychological well-being while helping others. And so, but we we have the concepts to help facilitate that change process. But what helps facilitating that change process is going through it yourself, right? The more that you understand the process of healing and growth from your own first-person experience, the more the ideas about how to help people change come through in the way you support them. So, you know, there's a very common phrase, physician, heal thyself. In the therapy training world, we get inundated with that as part of the training as well. But that concept also does not exist in the world of financial planning. Financial planner, know thyself, know thy financial life. And this is not about the balance sheet, but it's about the psychological relationship with money that you have. Because I am sure 100% that that's why you're in financial planning is that you're trying to gain some degree of mastery around money. And people that are most dedicated to a certain level of mastery oftentimes have some very painful experiences around that. Right. And so it can be a compensation, but if you don't recognize it as the compensation, you can probably stuck compulsively trying to address this issue. I studied this is gonna freak some people out, but I studied sex addiction for a while. And man, the frequency of connection between sexual abuse in the childhood history and compulsive sexual behaviors in adulthood was very high. And I don't see any reason why problems with money in childhood would not lead to compulsive approaches to money in adulthood. And so our job is to be compulsively aware of and understanding what's going on in the in the financial world. That comes out of something. You didn't come out of your mother's womb saying, I want to be a financial planner and know everything about how money works. No, and I don't want to be blind to the fact that there can be some very generative reasons that are motivating you to be a financial planner, also, both and. But I think what financial planners need to really be aware of, and and this is So gratifying and shocking when I talk to so many planners, is like, I have the hardest time talking with my spouse about money. And I feel frustrated and disappointed because, like, I do such a great job for all my clients. And they're they're really lost about why is this the reality? And it is because what we were talking about earlier is your spouse doesn't just see you as the financial planner. They see you as their husband, as their lover, as the parent to their kids, as the son-in-law or daughter-in-law, as the son or daughter of so so and so. And you hold many psychological roles to your partner. This is also why therapists get told you cannot treat your own family because you don't see your family clearly, and your family sure as heck does not see you clearly. And oh, by the way, they probably don't want you to be the family therapist.

SPEAKER_02 22:39

Or they do, and that's not healthy, nor should that be your role.

SPEAKER_00 22:43

Yes. Right. Either side of that, right? And so I'm a huge fan of encouraging financial planners to get their own financial planner, not because you don't have the technical expertise to manage your family's finances, but because you don't have the impartiality to look at your finances from your view and your spouse's view equally.

SPEAKER_02 23:01

Which I would imagine in a coupleship. I know this is also a challenge even within my marriage with Clayton and I, right? He's the financial planner. I am the one that's right. Uh nice.

SPEAKER_00 23:15

Um well, just kidding, but like that sentiment shows up. It does a lot for a lot of couples. That's let's just normalize that as normal, but not always helpful.

SPEAKER_02 23:26

Yeah. No, certainly, certainly not. And you know, I think what's hard, I'll I'll speak for, maybe I shouldn't speak for, but I will I will speak as the non financial partner in a relationship. I know what is difficult and historically has been difficult in Clayton and I's almost 19 years of being together. Uh is I have my own thoughts and feelings around here's what we quote unquote should do, or here's what I want to do or want for us to do. And then when presented with numbers, when presented with that god-awful spreadsheet, you know, I and it and it shows, right, and it highlights hey, the thing that you want, Ashley, according to the spreadsheet, that is not a responsible financial decision. Like my default then is to just okay, then whatever you want, right? Okay, whatever you think. You're the quote expert right here. And you take that and multiply it moment after moment, year after right, year. And you know, there's impact there where, at least as the non-financial partner, there have been times when I feel like I don't really have a voice. I don't like, or why are you asking me, or why would I even contribute to this? Because I'm probably gonna say, yeah, we should go and spend that on this, but that's not what the spreadsheet's gonna say. Listen, as a side note, like Clayton and I have a wonderful marriage relationship. And I think comparatively to a vast majority of people have a healthy sense of talking about money. However, we we have our stuff. And I think from an intimacy place, bringing us back right to intimacy, I think the recognition and where Clayton, I will give him absolute props on this. I hope he listens to this. He has done a fantastic job over the years, like really intentionally trying to include me on things, even if I have no idea maybe what all the details are, or helping me see maybe there's a better way of getting what we want. And so I think, you know, from an obstacle place, like just when it comes to advisors, you have to know like yourself and you have to know, right? Okay, how is it that I work? Am I, do I have more of that money anxiety or money vigilance? And also how does my partner operate, right? What is their story? Recognizing that they don't view me maybe as this financial planner, but also maybe they do, and maybe they just push aside all of their own opinions, thoughts, beliefs because they think they don't matter. And how do I hold all of that, all of those realities simultaneously in a conversation then with them?

SPEAKER_00 26:40

That's a great question. And I really appreciate you sharing that because I think it really humanizes this whole experience is that financial intimacy exists on this continuum and capacity. And so, like, you recognize that, like, and you've worked with couples that are in severe distress, right, in your past life as a couples therapist. And so you recognize on a continuum, like, you know, hey, we are not like some of the couples I see in my couples therapy practice. Clayton and I are able to talk mostly openly. He is good, intended about it. He tries to bring me along. And sometimes he really misses me because I'm sharing my heart's desire to plan a family trip. I'm making this up. And he's like, well, let me run the spreadsheet. Nope. Yep, spreadsheet doesn't work. And he just comes back with this very pragmatic answer when what's needed first is an emotional response and an empathic acknowledgement. Honey, I know you would really love to take this trip. You know, as a family, connecting quality time really matters. Watch, see that you feel heard. Okay, I've been looking at the numbers. You know that for me, looking at the numbers is part of what will help me feel comfortable doing this trip. I've looked at the numbers. I'm having a hard time seeing how it's going to work for us, right? It really softens the whole process of how we talk about things. And so I think that this is one of the big lessons that advisors can talk about is the way we go into these conversations and the way we go out of these conversations matters a lot. Just like if you're trying to build sexual intimacy with your spouse, most mature healthy partners have a process or sequence that they go through before they become sexually intimate with each other. They don't just start ripping each other's clothes off right in front of the kids, right? They have a way of building rapport and connection to a period of time when it makes sense for them to become intimate together. And then afterwards, they have a way of exiting that says, you know, this has been great and move on. Maybe it's rolling over and falling asleep, but you know, that's but that cycle leaves it to where both partners feel appreciated and understood and cared about. And that's really what I want listeners to take away is like it's the same thing for being able to talk about your finances. And I, you know, the irony is I was working on this framework recently, Money Talks Made Great, using this acronym G-R-E-A-T, to try to help couples with this very concept that we're talking about, Ashley, to deepen financial intimacy. And I'll tell you what those letters mean in just a minute. But I'm literally working on developing this thing. Do you know what I do? My wife comes home. I go straight to her and be like, I got bad news. Blaine wants to have a couple more kids to his birthday party, which you know what that means. Oh, let me tell you how she responded. Was it with like excitement and like a deep breath of like, okay, cool, we're gonna get through this? Oh no, it sent her right into a distress, the distress. And I said it that way, knowing like, you know, things are a little tight, so I don't want to, you know, like I'm going with all my anxiety, but I want to get it off my chest. And so I violated the first rule, which is greet, greet your partner, say, Hey, honey, I'd love to talk with you about our son's birthday party. Is now a good time. If yes, next step. Remember, we both have a financial history that shapes the way we're gonna respond to things. So we're just trying to be cognizant as we go through this conversation that she has a frame of reference, I have a frame of reference that's gonna shape the way that she feels about this. Then we're gonna use the skill of empathy to move through the conversation. Say, hey, babe, I know you're feeling a little stressed about the household finances right now. I was talking with Blaine, he wants to have a couple other buddies. We're trying to keep all the social graces, you know, not have anyone feel uh excluded. Is there is there a way that we can work together as a family to figure out how to get this birthday party thing to work? Right. So I'm asking with empathy and curiosity, trying to invite collaborativeness. Now, this is the deeper part that a lot of listeners will have would have to do some additional study to really know. But your attachment style, your attachment history matters. And there's four broad attachment styles. They're secure, anxious, avoidant, and disorganized. And if your partner has a relationally anxious pattern, they might get really worried about losing social relationships if they don't do this birthday party thing. And they might be given to say, well, okay, yeah, let's just spend the money. Or they might be more avoidant, dismissive, and be like, who the F cares what other people think and how we do this birthday thing? Dismissive, relationally or secure. Like, you know what? Our friends will love us no matter what we decide to do. And if a couple kids aren't included, then they're not included because that respects our budget. Right. So being mindful of like how your partner is wired relationally is going to be driving some of those financial decisions. Now that's deeper psychology level. If you don't go there, you can't get there. That's okay. Just go with G-R-E and then T. Thank you. Thank you for have spending this time with me to talk about this for us to find some common ground on what to do. Right. And this is in contrast to ram rotting the decision by your partner and saying, hey, guess what? I went ahead and added two more kids to the birthday party. It's gonna be an extra 300 bucks.

SPEAKER_01 31:35

Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_00 31:36

Right? You're like, oh my God, wait, why do you know this? Yes, because these are like the real things that couples are dealing with, right? Is like, and you're make you're trying to make one financial decision, often in a much larger financial context of multiple other financial decisions, right? We had simultaneously a trip, a much bigger family trip that we're trying to plan, plus just coming out of the holidays, plus changes in business income. And so, like, we could have taken the approach, well, let's just look at the spreadsheet and does this pencil out. And it ultimately that was part of the right answer was to say, well, let's stop making up the number about how much this birthday party is now going to cost. Let's actually look and see how much the tickets are gonna cost for this particular event. But that was secondary to understanding the emotional needs of both of us.

SPEAKER_02 32:20

So your great framework for financial intimacy one is gold. I'm hoping maybe that this is the show where that debuts. Listening to you, I think the framework, I think is it's it's brilliant, right? And some of it reminds me a lot of Dr. John Gottman's, you know, work just in the soft startup, right? With the greet, right? There's a soft startup. I love the bookend, right? Of how we greet and how we end, right? The acknowledgement of saying thank you, showing that appreciation out there, verbalizing the appreciation there. What's coming to mind though, in in this framework where it's so helpful, and how I think advisors can use it for themselves and their own relationship, but also with their with you know their couple clients, is that it slows them down from a process standpoint. You know, using the example that you did, which is, let's be honest, very common, right? Yeah. If you think about real-world couples where quick financial decisions or quick financial intimate moments and opportunities are had, it's in those real life examples that you just gave. And I could see not employing a framework like this, where quick decisions financially are made and they're solely based on numbers, right? Well, a few more kids, that's gonna be an extra, this much money. And I don't know, you know what? No, I don't like, I don't know, no, just tell them no. And then, you know, we're off to the races emotionally and relationally, right? Depending upon how that goes, attachment styles, dynamics, what have you. And it's so fast, right? And then all of a sudden we're like, whoa, like, how did we get here? Uh-huh. Right. But this framework, what's so brilliant? And I don't know if this was intentional uh on your end, but what's so brilliant about it is that it really slows that process down. And it allows a couple and on an individual level, both parties to really get thoughtful around how do we want to make this work? Um, what is good for both maybe of us, how do we both feel? You know, it just draws in kind of that we element there. So couples move fast. And I know you know that. And if you are in a partnership, you probably also realize that things can move very fast dynamically. And so having a process, having a framework that can really slow that interaction down, I think really then allows us to show up, respond in a way that, you know, we really want or are intending to with our partners. That's what was going on in my head, as you're saying, and and all the light bulbs were going off in my mind there. How's that, how is that landing on you right now?

SPEAKER_00 35:13

I mean, one, I'm I mean, grateful to hear that positive feedback. This is a new framework that I just kind of mapped out. And it because it I do think a lot about how couples get into money conversations, why are they in conflict, what's going on, and how do we make it tangible and concrete enough that people know what to do and how to get oriented? Because here's the other thing is once we get into these money conversations, it's very easy to get lost and disoriented about what's important because we have the emotional flooding and our brain becomes literally not integrated, like different layers of our brain are more or less active depending on how we're wired up. And I think what I really love that you're highlighting that I didn't think so much about is so many money decisions in family life are kind of spur of the moment, quick, not planned, and maybe not. It's it's not appropriate to say, well, let's defer it for three days and we'll when we have our weekly budget meeting. Right? This was kind of like a hey, you know, I mean, the broader context is like my son had had some other neighborhood buddies over. There's four of them that are all kind of close together. And we had said earlier, you can invite two. Well, then when all four are playing together, they hear like, oh, Blaine, you're going skiing for your birthday. I want to go skiing. And he's now in this pickle between, well, my parents set this limit, my buddies want to go. And so there's this complex social dynamic that's emerged. And this is, I think, part of how we start to develop these money scripts and money realities about how to navigate relationships and money. Because in childhood, we're financially dependent. And so our adult or authority figures are making decisions about what we can have access to or what we cannot have access to. They're modeling for us how to work through these dilemmas, these very real social dilemmas. And so it can seem very simple on the surface to say, well, this is just a birthday party and is very clean. It's either going to be, and I'm making these numbers up, it's either gonna be $300 or $500. And, you know, depending on how you're listening, you might say, well, $200 more doesn't matter. And some of you might be listening, I can't believe that you're spending $300 on a kid's birthday party. And some might be saying, well, why aren't you spending $1,000? And because it's context dependent on that family and where that's at. And this is part of this bigger challenge, I think, for a lot of families is also your financial life is not a static experience. Right? I mean, maybe you always keep your emergency fund, but like we had just spent down a large part of our savings fund because we had had some other obligations. And so we're we're in a rebuilding phase, and now we've got this birthday party. And so it also ideally creates learning opportunities to talk with children, especially developing children. They're like, hey, um actually, this is so rich. I'm appreciate some space to work through this and talk about it with you too, because I know you'll not be judgmental about it. And uh your planning clients, they might be listening and be like, oh my god, this guy's a wonk. And I'm okay with that.

SPEAKER_01 38:05

Not at all.

SPEAKER_00 38:06

But you know, the reality is what's interesting that happened for our family in this scenario is it did get emotionally intense for a little while. And you know, another therapy technique that that I learned that you probably know of is like pick that special place that you can go when things feel unsteady and go there. And so we have a couch in a different room, and we both ended up there where we could this is another real practical skill is sit and face each other to see each other, to see what's really going on. And that's vulnerable and that's intense. But if you can hold space and be respectful, that's really powerful. Because if you're not looking at each other, you can make up all kinds of stories about what's going on with that person.

SPEAKER_02 38:43

And I would add maybe hold hands too from a co-regulation place. Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 38:48

Yeah, yeah. No, that's I mean, if you can get there, that's real deep financial intimacy. But what's interesting is, and this is the other piece is about family financial socialization, is the kids are watching all this unfold. And so it's two or three hours later, I'm back doing what I'm doing, and I hear my wife talking with my little one about were you guys fighting about money? What was going on? What was that about? He's seven, right? So he felt and knew there was a raise in the level of emotional intensity, and that we were talking about money. And so fortunately, my wife was able to say, Yeah, dad and I were having to work through a difficult money conversation. We're not mad at each other. Here's what it was about in seven-year-old language, and here's we're okay now. Daddy and I still love each other. And this is really the heart and the deepest stuff for folks is we grow up watching our parents have these financial conflicts, and then we wonder whether our parents actually love each other. And sometimes the parents don't love each other anymore. They've they've gone to the bottom and into hatred. But a lot of times the parents still love and care about each other. It just hasn't felt that way, it just hasn't seem that way. But kids are asking themselves, do mom and dad still love each other? Do they still care about each other? Some kids in more fragile environments, are they gonna make it or are they gonna split up? And I mean, God knows how many marriages are split up obstensibly over money. Now, it's really about the interpersonal skills beneath that. It's not the money that's actually the source that's driving them apart, it's the interpersonal skills. That's a misnomer. I love using that from a marketing standpoint. Correct.

SPEAKER_02 40:23

Thank you. Yes. Well, that's a that's a topic for another episode. That's another soapbox that you and I can both get on. Yeah. And well, and too here, Ed, like I think what's important to highlight and where this kind of falls into the intimacy piece is it ties a nice bow on that moment and it kind of wraps it up and it just shows that there's some resolution here around this issue. And creating, I think, healthy financial intimacy is about not carrying all of the past money arguments, small moments, right, into the present. It's like Clayton and I can have a disagreement on this particular money-related issue, and we create resolution right there. And yes, we still love each other, right? We do the the thank you, the T, right? Yeah. Thank you for listening, right? I love you, right? We we tie that up with a nice bow. And then guess what? Like there's closure, and we don't have to continue carrying that then with us. We can, if you will, let that go. And maybe then that gets talked about, right, with kids, if kids are listening, right? But what I love about that moment, right, and listening to Ann, right, kind of share that is what it shows is that we can have closure and we can wrap it up with a boat, and then we don't have to carry it with us into you know the next dynamic or what have you.

SPEAKER_00 41:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:52

So as we are kind of unfortunately wrapping up at least our time together for this episode, yeah. For this time, yes. If advisors are listening and they're like, hey, one, Ed is not crazy. Uh he, I think it's a deep fear of mine that people will think I'm crazy.

SPEAKER_00 42:13

I'm just gonna own it. I put it out there so we can work with it.

SPEAKER_02 42:17

Okay, so you know, if if they're in that direction, well, I guess maybe whether they think you're crazy or not, if they are just leaving this episode and they're like, hey, I'd like to know maybe a few other tips or tricks for how I can hone in, develop, increase my own financial intimacy within my relationship. Maybe give them one more little nugget. What's one more like kind of key takeaway that you would give to an advisor who wants to develop or increase or work on their own financial intimacy?

SPEAKER_00 42:50

Oh man. It's one of those experiences where it's like, it's the whole buffet that's showing up in front of me. I don't know which one to give you. What I would say is just to take hope away from this. And really the most practical strategy is there's a couple, whatever you want to do, but go back now and listen to this podcast again, a second time. Because now you've heard the whole story through and go back and listen to it again and see what you pick up on. And then make a commitment to yourself to say, I'm gonna try one thing. So if you heard this great framework today, greet, remember, empathy, attachment, thank you. Those five letters, it might take you a year to get all five of those on board. And so be patient, be kind with yourself. If you don't know how to be empathic, then start exploring what it means to be empathic. If you don't know what attachment theory is, then start exploring what that is. If you don't know how to express gratitude, explore why that might be challenging for you. Ashley, you talked about the research on uh harsh startup versus soft startup. Do do some research on that topic. There's there is information out there. So I would say just take this framework and take it one piece at a time, just like you learned. Financial planning. You did not become a comprehensive financial planner in one swoop. You've had to put concerted effort into learning how to understand and analyze people's cash flow, how to understand investment management, how to understand taxes, how to understand insurance, how to understand estate planning. Those each individually are difficult to master. And you have taken on the responsibility of integrating those topics in financial planning. But if you've been able to do that, then you can do financial intimacy.

SPEAKER_02 44:28

I love that. I love that. What a wonderful way to wrap up and end us. Thank you, Ed, for joining us today on one of hopefully many podcast episodes here on the show. I truly appreciate your wisdom. Love the great framework, right? Great. Ah, there it is. You put it in air quilts. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 44:51

I loved it though. You missed it.

SPEAKER_02 44:52

Oh man, that gum it. I feel like it's a good one.

SPEAKER_00 44:54

It's kind of like my kids' comment.

SPEAKER_02 44:56

Like you know, it was your kids' comment. We're just not in sync today. That's okay. It's all right. Oh man. Yeah, I was I got really pumped when I was listening to you talk because I was like, this is how I'm gonna wrap it up. And then you missed it. It's totally cool. I'm not embarrassed at all.

SPEAKER_00 45:12

Um, but okay, I gotta before we say go uh before we go, I gotta name this Ashley. Well what you see Ashley and I doing right now, this is healthy relating, right? We're friends, we're colleagues, but this was a moment of miss what we call misattunment, where Ashley was about to share something really significant. She shared it and then like it went over my head. Uh and we're just joking and working through it and talking about it and acknowledging instead of me ignoring it or minimizing it, or you collapsing into a puddle and be like, oh my god, I can't really do my joke. Right. So I just want listeners to know like this is a an example of what healthy relating can sound and look like.

SPEAKER_02 45:50

Yeah, thank you. I'm glad that you pointed that out because it is, and you can also recover from it as well, right? Yeah. Thank you, Ed, for everything. I won't say thank you for missing my jokes, but I do I understand your friend, and I have compassion and forgiveness there, and I won't hold it against you. Uh, we'll make sure that we put all of that in the show notes there. Thank you, listeners, for allowing Ed and I into your ears and into your mind today. If you found value in today's episode, I'd love to stay connected. You can follow me on LinkedIn at Ashley Kwame, where I share insights on the human side of planning. You can follow Ed at Ed Combs. He's all over social media and he puts out amazing insights as well. And make sure to subscribe to our monthly newsletter at planningandbeyond.com where we share exclusive resources and strategies that you can use in your practice. Don't forget to follow the show wherever you get your podcasts so you never miss an episode. And remember, finances don't have feelings, but your clients do. Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going beyond. Thanks for joining me on this episode of Planning and Beyond. I hope you found today's insights valuable and inspiring for both your practice and your personal growth. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. Your feedback helps us reach more advisors like you who are dedicated to making a difference. For more resources, tips, and to continue the conversation, visit our website at beyondthefp.com. You'll find articles, tools, and information about upcoming episodes designed to support your journey and practice. Stay connected with us on social media and never miss an update. Follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn. And remember, the best way to grow is to keep learning and sharing. Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going.