SPEAKER_02 0:00

It'd be amazing, wouldn't it, if we could just jump in the Dolorean like in Back to the Future and just pop back and say, Hey Neil, hey Ashley, this is going to happen to you. Don't do this.

SPEAKER_01 0:08

Right. But then would we be the same people? We wouldn't.

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the podcast where financial advising meets the art of meaningful conversations. I'm your host, Ashley Kwame. As a certified financial behavior specialist and a passionate advocate for personal growth, I'm here to help you elevate your practice and deepen your connections with clients. In each episode, we dive into the intersection of psychology, therapy, and financial advising. You'll discover practical strategies, insightful stories, and expert interviews that will empower you to not only excel in your profession, but also thrive in your personal life. Together, we'll explore the human side of financial planning, from understanding client emotions to mastering the nuances of effective communication. We'll also focus on your own growth because the best advisors are those who are continually evolving. Get ready to transform your practice and yourself. This is Planning and Beyond. Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the show dedicated to helping you deepen your relationship with your clients and yourself. I'm your host, Ashley Kwame. Today I'm joined by Neil Beige, co-founder of Shaping Wealth. He served as a chief behavioral officer in the UK and was the CEO and founder of a multi-award-winning behavioral insights business. For those of you who are just learning about Neil for the first time right now, he is a brilliant keynote speaker, hands down, one of the best, probably my favorite person to listen to at conferences. And if you ever have the opportunity to listen to one of his presentations, I encourage you to take it. Neil, my friend, welcome to the show. I am so glad that you are here.

SPEAKER_02 2:04

Ashley, I mean, what an introduction, right? I feel like the only way is downhill after that amazing introduction. But um listen, the pleasure is so mine. You know, ever since you and I met in person, you and your lovely husband and wanting to spend time with you has always been high on my agenda. So the fact that we have carved out this time to have a conversation, trust me, pleasure is all mine.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

I so appreciate that. But I disagree with you that the only way to go is downhill because I know that this will be a great conversation. Um I know it because you are brilliant and you have so much to give and share and so many wonderful insights, um, specifically today to the topic that we're going to be talking about, which is advisor well-being, burnout amongst practitioners. I can't wait to have this conversation. But before we jump in and get started, I would love for you, if you don't mind, maybe to share a little bit about some of your professional journey. How the heck does somebody get into applied behavioral science, neuroeconomics, like tech, like my goodness, how does that, how does that happen? Can you share a little bit with us?

SPEAKER_02 3:15

Yeah. So let me give you the shortened version of a of, I think, a long and varied journey. You know, so I I started by studying to be a PE teacher. That was where my life at the time was was heading. And I studied, as part of that, I studied human biology and sports psychology. And it was then that I fell in love with the brain and realized the power it has over us. Um the brain is us, but you know what I mean. You know, the way that we engage with the world, the stories we tell ourselves, the way that you know we absorb information, all of that really fascinated me from an early, early age. And and so I've I've never ever not researched or worked with people in this in this kind of the field of of neuroscience. And and the and what I do is I obviously today apply that to kind of how how the brain works in relation to money. But I decided once, thanks to one of my sisters who was young at the time, and I looked at her and thought, oh my word, if I become a teacher, I'm gonna have to teach people like her. And it was a bit of a, oh, I don't think I want to be a teacher. Um, and so I didn't know what I wanted to do, you know, at all. I was at a really kind of early stage, kind of crossroads in my life of what I want to do. And so I saw a job advert for a seasonal lifeguard job. I was a qualified lifeguard and swimming teacher, so I went and did that. And, you know, a classic fairy book story. Um, one night I turned around and saw this blue-eyed, dark-haired, gorgeous Italian girl kind of swooning. And I saw her and fell immediately in love. And then that, without realizing it in that moment, was a pivotal point in my life. You know, met her young, I'm 50 now, I've been married to her first since 1997. Um, you know, and and that was an important part because I then moved to a different part of the UK to be with her, didn't know what I wanted to do. Someone said, you know what, come and work for me temporarily in a in this big financial services organization just outside of London. I went in there, helped them build the first ever kind of risk profiling tool, helped them figure out their client strategy around human behavior, and never left the world of financial services and have spent coming up to two decades in that space almost exclusively working with financial planners and financial advisors on the human aspect of money and behavioral science, behavioral finance. So trust me, that's a condensed version of an incredibly varied journey. But um I'm not a big believer in fate, Ashley. You know, I'm a I often ponder on the sliding door moments that we have in life. And and I think that day, you know, meeting Sandy, my wife, who you've met, you know, that was such an important part of my story because I wouldn't be sat talking to you now if her and I hadn't met.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

Very true. I'll have to next time that I see her, make sure that I thank her. She is a true gym, as you and I were chatting about here just before we hit record. So grateful for her and that sliding, sliding door moment. And I think I can speak for, you know, m more, right? Others and that from a financial the impact you've had just on like the services and in the field, uh, you know, grateful for that moment uh in her. So any awards, I think now from now on, Neil, need to be really just given, given to her. I don't I don't know how you feel about that.

SPEAKER_02 6:59

She gets them already. You know, this is I I I I say this with seriousness, Ashley. I could not do at all what I do if she wasn't by my side supporting me with me doing it, right? You yeah, what's the phrase behind every great man is an even greater woman? And and I think you know, that's true. You know, I she gives me the capacity, the time, the space, the support I need to do what I do. And I am and always will be eternally grateful for the love and commitment she she shows me. You know, so all the all your kind words towards me, you know, should also be directed to her.

SPEAKER_00 7:34

Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I just I'm sitting here just kind of thinking about our topic today and talking about well-being, talking about self-care. And, you know, I think that what I'm hearing from from you, and you know, as a couples therapist, like also know that part of self-care and our own just well-being, there is a partner aspect to that. And when we have healthy relationships on the personal side, not just the professional, but on the personal side, they really do impact our ability to take care of ourselves, to be able to, you know, um, go out and do the wonderful things professionally that we want. But you know, yeah, I I I I love this. I love how unintentionally this talking about uh, you know, your partner, uh, there's just this connection, greater connection to, you know, overall advisors being able to take care of themselves uh from a place of well-being.

SPEAKER_02 8:28

There's it, you know, it's having someone in your corner who is there without judgment, who is there with love and support. And you know, it it can't be understated the importance of that. You know, there's there's nothing worse than facing difficulties or struggles or any of the the words that could be fit would fit in that camp um on your own.

unknown 8:55

Right.

SPEAKER_02 8:55

Nothing worse. You know, just just you know, it's and I know I I I feel like I'm full of metaphors today and statements, but you know, it's kind of like a you know, if you can have a load and you can share the load, you know, then it just makes the journey all that easier. So um it yeah having someone who you can turn to and and who can who is there for you is so important.

SPEAKER_00 9:15

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, takeaway number one, have a great partner, yeah. Work on your marriage, right? If you're wanting to be concerned about your well-being, yeah. Taking care of yourself, takeaway number one. I'm gonna put that in the show notes. Yeah, have a great partner like Sandy specifically. She's gonna teach the course. Uh you can have her, by the way.

SPEAKER_02 9:33

She's mine.

SPEAKER_00 9:35

I just want her to teach others. I don't want to, I don't want to steal her. I just want her to teach others. So awesome. Well, okay, so going a bit further just into this idea around advisor well-being and and and you know, advisors taking care of themselves. I don't know about for you, Neil. You've been in this um industry and this space a lot longer than I have. But one of the things that really struck me when I started to make this pivot into the financial services space is how little it was talked about around the advisor side of well-being. There's so much focus around clients and taking care of your clients and doing good for them, which don't get me wrong, is important and it is and is needed and is necessary. But as a mental health practitioner, I was blown away. Like there's not a lot of talk there. I'm curious, as you've been in this space, like, how have you seen that evolution of you know, advisor well-being? You guys do a lot of that at shaping wealth. Can you talk to us a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_02 10:38

Yeah, we do. And I think the evolution of that, Ashley, if I'm being really honest, has been painfully slow. You know, we still see huge swathes of this industry who or this profession who don't want to talk about themselves and their own well-being. And actually, that's an important area that I think you think, you know, you believe, I believe, should be talked about more. And let me just kind of explain why I think that's true, why that statement is true. Yes, we are financial professionals, right? And let me use these words. Yes, I am a financial advisor, right? But I'm actually in a helping profession. I help other human beings to flourish and to thrive. I engage with other human beings and talk to them about their dreams and their aspirations and their hopes, as well as their fears and their anxieties and their worries and their concerns. All of these things, which are just normal part of the human condition, are part of my everyday job as a financial advisor. But it, you know, we can wrap it up in that statement that I've just used. We are in a helping profession. Well, so are counselors and therapists, so are doctors, and you know, and there are other fields that are that are legitimate helpers, if you like. But what we've done, unlike other professions where there are helpers who also seek help, we tend to not seek help. And I'm not on about an advisor going to another advisor to sort out their financial plan. I'm talking about us talking to other human beings and saying to them, you know what? I had a really difficult client conversation today. And it's made me anxious, it's made me worried, I'm not very happy, I'm not in a good place, whatever, whatever it is. We just don't do that. We seem to feel like we go through these meetings, meeting after meeting after the after meeting, like we have some Teflon vest on, you know, or like we have a bulletproof vest on, whatever the phrase is. That the what we're experiencing, the emotions and the anxieties and everything coming across the table from the clients, it's like it doesn't bother us, it's like it hits us and bounces off. And that's just not true. That's not how humans work. And so I'm seeing other some advisors who are recognizing that that is true, and therefore they need to work on themselves first. Because the truth is, Ashley, if you don't work on yourself first, if you don't do the hard work on yourself first, you actually aren't in a position to help somebody else. You know, you need to be in prime, you know, you need to put yourself into prime shape mentally, physically, all of the things in order for you to show up and help other people. And so the sooner we have these conversations about focusing on us first, the better it'll be not only for us, but for our clients. And I'll finish off by saying, but there's a but there is a kind of inherent social barrier to get over because you know, we're all taught that if we focus on us and we talk about us, then we're being selfish or you're being self-centered, or you know, whatever the word is. That's just not true. That is not true. You know, Joy, you know, my colleague at Shaping Wealth, Dr. Joy Leary, uses a beautiful phrase, you can't pour from an empty cup. And you know, it's just a true statement, you know. So why would you therefore not focus on you first in order to help other people? Because you know, the evidence shows if you do that, you flourish, but so do your relationships.

SPEAKER_00 14:28

Yeah, I I yes, I would agree to a thousand percent everything that you've everything that that you've said, and you've you know talked about it so wonderfully uh there I'm so on the mental health side, this is and Joy, you know, knows this, and I'm sure you know most of you, uh, the Shaping Well team, like this is something that is just resounding through mental health. And as you said, through met the medical professionist, take care of yourself, don't pour from an empty cup. You can't take your clients further than you know, you've gone, you know, maybe yourself, right? All of these things. And you said something about the social barrier there for maybe financial advisors. I'm curious, apart from you know, the social barrier, are there any other barriers that you feel like get in the way or are just hurdles for advisors recognizing or giving themselves permission, I guess, to look inward and do some of that self-work?

SPEAKER_02 15:26

I mean, the the biggest barrier is how we see ourselves, right? So a phrase we use in shaping wealth is we say financial advisors, financial planners, they play two roles mechanic and guide. The mechanic focuses on all of the technical aspects, you know, asset allocation, tax optimization, estate planning, all those things. The guide comes alongside another human being to help them navigate this world that we live in. It's not a technical role, it's a human role. It's human to human. One of the biggest barriers we have is when an advisor engages with a client and something happens where maybe anxiety or stress or worry, something emotional is happening or unfolding in front of them. The safe place to go is the mechanical place, because that's where all my training is. Oh, I can I'll pull out a chart or I will show them some numbers and I'll have a conversation about the plan and how it's you know, how organized it is, and we're fine and everything's gonna be okay, and you don't need to worry, you know, all of those things. It's because it's the safe place to go, it's where I feel comfortable. It's not comfortable to engage another human being in an emotional conversation when they are emotionally you know triggered by something. That's not a comfortable place to go. But the guide would recognize that's absolutely the place to go. And it's not about being a therapist, it's not about being anything other than just a human being and recognizing that this human at this moment in time doesn't need another chart, they don't need a table of numbers, they need a fellow human being to come alongside them and help them navigate this particular situation. And you know what? Just to let them know that they're gonna be okay, and you don't tell them they're gonna be okay by saying, but I've got this covered in your financial plan. That's not the phrase that they need to hear at that moment. You need to just lean in and just allow them to be a human. So, out of all of the barriers that I see, that one by far is the biggest one. Because, you know, Ashley, one of the issues we have, so you know, we have this social challenge. Don't be selfish, don't be self-centered. That's a barrier. The mechanic guide kind of analogy, that's a barrier as as well. But I tell you another barrier, and we've done ourselves a massive disservice over the years by doing this. We've criticized soft skills. When you mention the word soft skill, old school tend to go, that's all bumboo jumbo, it's all whatever, it's all woo-woo. And you know, a phrase that's shaping wealth that we use all the time is the soft skills are the hard skills. They're diamonds, they are really exactly right. Exactly right. They're so difficult. Listening, showing empathy, asking the right questions, being curious. You know, there's a whole raft of soft skills that we can kind of put names on. They are incredibly difficult to master. So another barrier that we see is people facing the world with a growth mindset and going, you know what? I want to grow, I want to learn, I want to be a better version of myself. I'm an amazing technician, I'm an amazing mechanic. I can always be a better guide. And so a barrier is how do we or a barrier we see is how do we get advisors to overcome their inherent bias that soft skills are woo-woo, and start to lean into the areas that will enable them to grow, to flourish, and ultimately to be a better human.

SPEAKER_00 19:07

Yeah. Um it reminds me of this quote from Carl Rogers. And for those of you who aren't familiar with Carl Rogers, he's a um one of the founders within the humanistic psychology field, um, client-centered therapy, uh, somebody that, you know, a lot of mental health therapists study a lot. But there's this really wonderful quote that um I've always hung on to uh from him. And he says that the good life is a process, it's not a state of being, it's a direction, it's not a destination. And I love that quote so much, and especially when it comes to really thinking about our own well-being and everything that you've shared here, some of the hurdles that get in the way. There's that social barrier uh that becomes very difficult to walk through and navigate and scary, let's be honest, because to go against the grain is scary. It requires courage. There's, you know, I heard you talk about the vulnerability of leaning into, you know, becoming or being a guide, right? Not just the mechanic. And you and I both know that as humans, we are really not wired to do like dangerous, right, vulnerable things, right? Our brain goes, yeah, nah, I'm out. Like, I'm not doing that. You know, but then you know, there's also these soft skills. And my goodness, certainly um, you know, I like I like to call them diamond skills. Uh, I heard a colleague, Andy Wren, call them that one time and it's stuck with me because they are hard as, you know, bleep expletive to learn and do. Uh, and and not only are they hard to do with clients, my goodness, they're also hard like to, you know, do with ourselves, right? To offer ourselves empathy, compassion, curiosity, right? Why do I think this way? Why is this feeling coming up inside of me every time I see that client's name? Or every time that client brings up that really tough or starts talking about their anxiety, I feel really uncomfortable and want to go into that mechanic mode.

SPEAKER_02 21:14

No, that's right. And you know, Ashley, I feel blessed, genuinely blessed, with the people I've been introduced to since my shaping wealth journey began. That includes, you know, the entire shaping wealth team, people like you, you know, because when I have conversations with you and and my colleagues, I learn a ton every single conversation, right? But one of the biggest lessons I've learned over this time is to kind of inject this cognitive pause into me before I engage with the world, just to s just to go, why? or recognize the feelings that I'm having, and then ask myself, why am I feeling like that? Or what is it about what you know this person has said that is making me feel like this? I feel a bit anxious. Why why am I conscious? Why am I worried about so the this pause, this moment of self-reflection? You would think it's easy. It's taken me an age to even get to a place where I think I'm starting to get it. Will I ever master it? Absolutely not, because I'm a human. And I also know that there is a gazillion things entering my brain at the same time that I need to process. And it's very difficult to put pauses in there all the time. But if I can just become, you know, 1% better and then get better and better and better incrementally, then I grow and I ultimately continue to be a better version of myself. But just that one skill, pausing and self-reflecting and trying to recognize how I feel and work through that before I engage with the world. Just that one soft skill. Yeah, try and master that one. You know, and you'll realize how difficult it is.

SPEAKER_00 23:08

Hey friends, we'll be right back with the episode. But before we do, I wanted to take a quick second to let you know about what we do at Beyond the Plan and how we support financial advisors who are committed to growth. At Beyond the Plan, we specialize in integrating financial and client psychology to enhance your advisory practice. From client meeting facilitation, advisor training and coaching, even client onboarding strategies. We are your implementation partner, a dedicated in-house expert. Visit our website at beyondthefp.com to learn more about our services and how we can collaborate to elevate your practice. Together, let's go beyond the plan to deliver meaningful client experiences that foster long-lasting relationships. Now, back to the episode. As I just shared with that quote, like everything you said, like it's not about like the destination, I don't think should be well-being. I don't know about you, and I don't even know if that's possible. Like if the destination can or is well-being, right? Like I think we talk about that, right? Like we should achieve, right? Quote unquote achieve like well-being. I don't, I don't know if that destination is possible, but it is more about the process and the becoming 1% better, as you said. And how can we do that incrementally over time?

SPEAKER_02 24:27

That's a really interesting question. Is well-being this is it well-being? I don't think it is. You know, I we we have a structure that we use as shaping wealth of, in essence, what it means to be human. And, you know, it's cognition, perception, emotion, emotion, decision, habit, and well-being. And it's a pro and it's the process that every human goes through when they engage with the world. You know, the brain is on, cognition. We are taking in data into the engine, perception. We are creating an emotional response to the data, emotion. We use the framework that we get from emotion to ultimately lean forward and make decisions. If we can get, you know, make good decisions and recognize the data going into the engine, then we can make good habits and break bad habits. And ultimately that leads to well-being. But well-being, as we define it, is I just want to be happy and content. I want to live a life of meaning and purpose. You know, so is well-being a state that I is achievable? Well, maybe it's like the it's like the conversation about can you what is happiness? You know, it's such a subjective phrase. Whereas what we teach is, you know, is the concept of funded contentment, you know, funding a life that is meaningful to you. It's not about happiness per se, it's about finding contentment and and and working towards a life of meaning and purpose on your terms and whatever that means for you. So it's an interesting question you raise about well-being, given the vast amount of focus around the world on well-being. You know, are we looking at the wrong thing? Perhaps.

SPEAKER_00 26:05

Perhaps. Yeah. And, you know, if we are, well, I mean, maybe that's okay to some extent, because at least if we're talking about it and working towards it, maybe, maybe we are like incrementally at least taking steps and concerted efforts to trying to be better or to be happier or to have that fund and contentment, as you, as you guys said. But I also think that there could be some danger in thinking that it is a, you know, a destination. And once I get there, then I will be fine, right? If I can, you know, as an advisor, like if I can just get to this place, whether it's AUM, whether it's number of clients, whether it's working less hours or only working three days a week, then I will have achieved right, maybe that well-being or that state. And so I I guess, you know, on one hand, it's like, well, maybe, maybe it's good to think, but on the other hand, there could be some danger. I don't know. I'm curious, maybe your thoughts kind of on that.

SPEAKER_02 27:04

Yeah, maybe. I mean, the when-then situation, you know, the when-then scenario plays out in life all the time. You know, when I, you know, or when I achieve X amount of money, then I will buy the holiday home in Europe. You know, that's the when-then is a real common problem for us all. We we we when then all the time. Um, but you're right, maybe you know, it it's the words we use, Ashley, I think is the challenge, you know, like for example, happiness. You know, it's it's a it's a fleeting emotion. You know, you can be happy one second and not happy. That doesn't mean you're sad, but not happy the next second. It's such a kind of fleeting emotion in us that I don't think we can ever truly be happy. As in your point, I've reached a stage of happiness and now I'm going to be happy forevermore. That's just not how life works. Because life will always throw curveballs at you. There will always be moments of sadness and happiness and joy and anger and all of the emotions that we that we know of. But contentment's a different word. It's it's a kind of it's a state, it's a state of mind. It's a it's it's not a destination, it's a journey word. You know, I are you content with the life you currently have? That doesn't mean you need to wake up every morning and hey, I'm very happy. Look how happy I am. It doesn't mean that, right? But you can wake up every morning and be, you know, be content that you've got a roof over your head, that you have a job, that you've got a loving partner, that you've got healthy kids. You know, those aspects of life create this kind of umbrella of contentment. And I think that's what we should be working towards, instead of kind of this ephemeral, you know, fleeting emotion that the media, I would argue, has kind of pushed down our throats. You know, you just need to do this and then you'll be happy. Well, how do you know that? You know, so you know, the whole principle behind funded contentment is is gets us away from kind of these these fleeting moments and gives us something that's more substantial to kind of put our hat on, you know.

SPEAKER_00 29:19

Yeah. So, okay, so if we go with this idea, and I'm here for it, I'm on board with with this idea, right? By the way, that well-being is contentment, right? Being and feeling, feeling content. What would you say are some practical steps that advisors who are listening to this right now and they're like, oh man, these two are maybe they're talking about something that I can, you know, I think I understand. I think I think I'm getting it right. What would you say are some of those practical steps that advisors that are listening that are maybe new or just on kind of lost in that place of like, I know my well-being is suffering. I can feel it, I know it, it's obvious. What are some things practical things that they can start to do uh from your end?

SPEAKER_02 30:09

The one that I would counsel people to do, and I'm gonna ex, I'll let you into a little bit of a you know, my private life in a second to explain why I'm saying this, is to seek the helper. Find someone who you can call on who can come along alongside you and help you navigate the world. It's fine, you doing that for all your clients, but you need someone alongside you as well. And that might be your wife, your husband, your partner, your business partner, a best friend. I genuinely don't care who it is, it just needs to be someone who you can trust, someone who will never sit in judgment of you, who will put their arm around you when you need them to, and will push you forward when you need the gentle push and will embrace you when you need the embrace. You know, finding that person is such an important part of being human. It really is. You know, we are social creatures and we are tribal creatures, you know, lowercase T. And um we need to find our people and we need to find our tribe, and we need to find someone within that world who can come alongside us and who has our back. And I feel like, you know, we talked about my wife at the top of this, but I feel like I have a really close-knit community of of very close friends. I don't have a huge circle of friends, I don't have 20, 30, 40 people. I've we've got about eight. So I've got quite a tight tribe. Um, and I know that at any second of any day, I could pick up my phone and call them and they would be there for me. I know that. Um, that's how that's how, by the way, over the years I've managed to whittle it down to eight. Not that I tested them all, but like at 3 a.m. calls. I didn't do that. You just know you learn as you go through life who's who's got your back and who who hasn't. And this circle of eight all have my back. But sometimes you need to seek the helper in a different way. And let me just tell you this without I don't I'm not I'm not gonna bring the tone down, but I'm just gonna tell her a a story. Three years ago, whatever it was, when my mum died, I kind of dealt with dealt with it, got on with it. And as I have with everything in life, and I called on that close circle of friends during that period of time and got all the support that I that I needed, right? So I felt like I had, you know, like I say about advisors being guides and coming alongside their clients, I feel like someone a lot of my friends came alongside me and and helped me navigate that particular terrain at the time. But something up here needed help, you know. So whilst I needed all the emotional support and the hugs and the cuddles and the nice words from my friends, something inside my brain just had not achieved the same level of kind of peace, if you like. And this is a lot around, and this isn't self-sabotage or any of those things that psychologists talk about. This is just me going, something's not right. I don't feel right. And I went and looked for the helper. And that in in this situation, I went to counseling and I found a counselor, and it was a young guy who just qualified as a clinical psychologist. And a lot of my friends said to me, It's a bit weird, Neil, that you're doing this because you understand the brain, you understand psychology, and I'm like, Yes, but I'm still a human being. And actually, it's very difficult to take what's in my head and objectively look at that and then repackage it, put it back in and make sense of the world. It's still difficult for me. You know, Ashley, you do this day in, day out, right? You know, you you are a cup, you do counseling to couples. You know, it doesn't mean that you in your married life don't have challenges and you you you find yourself going down a path that anybody else you tell them not to, but you still go down that path yourself. That and that's the same as me, right? You know, so I needed help. And that moment in my life was a pivotal moment because what happened is just verbalizing what was in my head, talking out loud about what I was going through, how I was feeling with a complete stranger who wasn't judgmental, who was genuinely there to help, and I think in every session said like 12 words. You know, it's um it was such an important part of my growth because it did allow me to hear things for the first time. These stories I tell myself, I heard them out loud. And there was moments actually when I was thinking, Neil, you are you are mental, man. What is wrong with you? What is wrong with you? Can you heal yourself? Do you really think this? And and all it was like there was another Neil sitting next to me saying to me, What are you going on about, man? That's not what happened. Why are you even feeling that? You know, and it was a really interesting moment. And and all this counsellor or this therapist allowed me to do over the course of a year, by the way. I thought I was going to be there for two weeks. I was there for a year, was unpack everything, repackage it, and put it back in. And then all of a sudden, as I said to him at the end, I feel like you have just lifted tons of weight off my shoulders. I feel lighter, I feel more content with my life. And it's not like my life was crap, and it's not like I had a bad life, but when you start unpacking the stories that make you you, you know, and it's a phrase we use again in shaping wealth, you know, our stories are written in pencil, they're not written in pen. And, you know, and and so that using that piece of wisdom going into my counseling sessions, my therapy sessions, I allowed it allowed me to kind of erase lines from my story and put in re put in the facts, if you like. And and now when I look back on my story, I look back, you know, with a smile on my face as opposed to kind of a look of anguish. So sum up, it's amazing having your close friends and family and loved ones near you to help you navigate the world. But sometimes we need to look for the helpers further afield. And if you really want to care, if you really care about you and your well-being and giving yourself, giving yourself the best chance to help your clients, then look for the helpers and look for your own guide. Um, because you know what, there's many people out there who would happily come alongside you and help you navigate the challenges of life.

SPEAKER_00 37:05

Yeah, I don't I don't think that I could have summed up like our conversation today truly, like much better than everything that you than everything that you just said. And, you know, look, as your friend, but also the therapist part of me, I just want to thank you and validate so much like what you just shared. Um, I think that it would be I could not just move on uh from that. So I feel a little bit teary-eyed, but um well, you as I've shared with you kind of before, like my whole week has just been um, you know, a little bit of a roller coaster. So I'm a little bit emotional just anyway today. But I truly do appreciate you sharing, you know, that personal story because I think that it just opens up and normalizes how okay it is for us as helpers, as practitioners, as guides to seek out our own guide, our own support, our own helper. And and beyond just the from the place of like finding community. Community is so important from a place of you know well-being, contentment, it is, but also it's okay if you need to take it a step further and you know, and and to do that. I yeah, I truly just appreciate that that vulnerable share.

SPEAKER_02 38:22

Oh, Ashley, you are so welcome. And let me just say something really important here, because I think this is it's an important factor in that previous story. People said to me, Why don't you just talk to your wife? Or why don't you just talk to your friends? And my response to that, my initial my initial thought was, oh, they're right. But then my view changed to I can't. And it's not because I didn't want to burden them, because they would be happily burdened by listening to me talk. It's because they can't sit in objective, they they can't sit in an objective seat. They can't just let me speak without going, oh, you're gonna be okay, or yeah, but that's not how that happened, or you know, because they are all part of my story. They are all characters in the same story. And I needed someone who wasn't a character in my story, someone who was literally picking the book off the shelf for the first time ever and reading through it with me, like me narrating my own story. It can't be a character because they're too close to your story, you know. So for me, I got to a point of going, I know I can speak to all of these people, and I do. I share my feelings with all of my close friends and my wife. But this time, this is different. You know, if I want to move forward and I want to feel like I can grow and I want to give myself the best chance of being the best version of myself, I need to revisit my story and I need to revisit it with a stranger. Um, and I tell you, Ashley, I cannot rave enough about the work that you and other therapists do. It is such an honorable, admirable, amazing thing you do to help other human beings through the the most difficult parts of their life. And all I would hope that if one advisor listening to this reaches out to somebody else and it puts them on a path where their well-being, their contentment is changed for the good, then you and I have done our job here.

SPEAKER_00 40:25

Yeah, I would uh wholeheartedly, wholeheartedly agree with you there. So, Neil, as our time sadly comes to an end, I know, I know it goes by so fast. I know. We we will schedule more time for sure, but hopefully also in-person time too, uh, at some point. So, you know, I know that we've kind of gone on this journey together here over the last 30, 40 minutes and talking about well-being and what that means, and maybe even perhaps what it looks like and how advisors can take some steps. And, you know, in maybe a similar fashion, I'd like to kind of end by asking um my guests if you were to look back at your uh uh earlier professional self. So the Neil that first kind of started right after you met Sandy, moved right, and joined into kind of the financial services place. What are maybe two or three things that looking back through maybe fresher eyes, what are two or three things that pieces of advice that you would give to your younger self?

SPEAKER_02 41:36

The the first piece of advice was get out of the rap race as soon as you possibly can, because it is damaging and it is horrible. You know, I found myself falling into it before I set before I set out on my own. I didn't give you the full story, remember. So I I worked in the big corporate world. I was the you know, I was head of strategy for a FTSE 100 company, earning good money, living in a nice house, driving a nice car, all the things. And I found myself just trapped by the the need for more. And it was only then when they made me redundant and I set out um I set up my own business that the shackles were taken off, and I start and I realized what on earth have I been doing for the last whatever number of years. And if I could go back and say to Neil as he was starting out on that journey, listen, mate, do me a favor, don't try and do what everybody else is doing. Forge your own path, write your own story, you know, be the hero of your own journey. Um, that would be the piece of wisdom that I would I would give Neil. And the other one is, you know what, mate, life's hard. People will let you down. Um, you know, businesses will, you know, people will use and abuse you, um, you know, for their own gain, but just maintain uh maintain resilience through it and know that actually it's not personal, it's just the way the world operates. Because I think Ashley Early Dawes, I would take things really personally, thinking that everything was aimed at me. And it wasn't. It was just other people trying to get on and do what they thought was right for them, and and and I was in the way, and that's fine. As an as a 50-year-old man, I recognize that now, and and I kind of accept that that's the way the world operates. But I think just that maintain your resilience and don't take things personally would be a would be a uh another piece of advice that I I give. You know, those two, when I look back and reflect on my life, I wish someone had said to me earlier on, and I've learned I've learned as we all do by walking the walk, that um it'd be amazing, wouldn't it, if we could just jump in the DeLorean, like in Back to the Future and just pop back and say, Hey Neil, hey Ashley, this is gonna happen to you. Don't do this, right?

SPEAKER_01 43:58

But then would we be the same people? We wouldn't. No.

SPEAKER_00 44:02

No, but I would have been a lot cooler in high school. Let me just tell you that.

SPEAKER_02 44:06

So I bet you were cool in high school. And I I I can't see you not being cool in high school.

SPEAKER_00 44:12

I don't know, but I think I would have been cooler. So that might be, which you know, maybe I wouldn't have the personality that I have now if if I had been cooler. Who knows? But I think those are fantastic pieces of wisdom that I hope, especially for those maybe who are younger in their career right now, are just starting out. And even if you're not, right, just taking that in and and letting that sink in. Neil, where can people find you if they're going and looking and saying, I want more Neil? Where can they find you out on the internet?

SPEAKER_02 44:48

I I doubt that, but if you do, if you um yeah, I'm on Twitter um or X, whatever it's called this week, um, which is at Neil Bage, B-A-G-E, N-E-L-B-A-G-E, um, or shaping wealth. Yeah, shapingwealth.com um is our is our website. I'm on there too. But I and I'm on LinkedIn. But other than that, I'm not really in the social world. Um, I've got too much going on in the real world. You know. So um, but yeah, that's where you can find me if you want to find me.

SPEAKER_00 45:15

Wonderful. We'll make sure that we have links to all of those in the show notes for you to check out. And for all of you out there tuning in right now, I want to express my sincere thanks and appreciation for allowing Neil and I into your ears and into your mind today. Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going beyond. Thanks for joining me on this episode of Planning and Beyond. I hope you found today's insights valuable and inspiring for both your practice and your personal growth. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. Your feedback helps us reach more advisors like you who are dedicated to making a difference. For more resources, tips, and to continue the conversation, visit our website at beyondthefp.com. You'll find articles, tools, and information about upcoming episodes designed to support your journey and practice. Stay connected with us on social media and never miss an update. Follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn. And remember, the best way to grow is to keep learning and sharing. Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going.