SPEAKER_02 0:00

Is it Carl Rogers? Is that his name do you know?

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Yeah. Oh yeah. You get my boy.

SPEAKER_01 0:04

I forget the term.

SPEAKER_00 0:05

I mean, I wish he was. I wish he was my boy. Yeah, same.

SPEAKER_01 0:08

Yeah, same here. I I do too.

SPEAKER_00 0:11

I wish he's our boy. Yeah, our boy. He has rest in peace. Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the podcast where financial advising meets the art of meaningful conversations. I'm your host, Ashley Kwamey. As a certified financial behavior specialist and a passionate advocate for personal growth, I'm here to help you elevate your practice and deepen your connections with clients. In each episode, we dive into the intersection of psychology, therapy, and financial advising. You'll discover practical strategies, insightful stories, and expert interviews that will empower you to not only excel in your profession, but also thrive in your personal life. Together, we'll explore the human side of financial planning. From understanding client emotions to mastering the nuances of effective communication. We'll also focus on your own growth because the best advisors are those who are continually evolving. Get ready to transform your practice and yourself. This is Planning and Beyond. When it comes to prospect and discovery meetings, what kind of mindset and skill set do you need? Pull up a chair and grab a notepad, friend. You'll be glad you did. Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the show dedicated to helping you deepen your relationship, not only with your clients, but yourself. I'm your host, Ashley Kwame. Today, I'm excited to have with me the one and only Brendan Fraser. Not the actor, the chief behavioral officer for RFG advisory and host of one of my favorite podcasts, The Human Side of Money. Brendan, welcome, friend. Did I miss anything?

SPEAKER_02 1:55

No, but I'm very glad that you mentioned that part about not the actor. So just like last week, I had a there's a post that I had on LinkedIn last year that got grabbed and went over to Reddit, and it's gone viral on Reddit twice. I'm not a big Redditor, but like I guess if you get on the front page, I mean you're going viral. So it's now gone on the front page twice, and it's a picture, like it's from a LinkedIn post. So it's a picture of me and my family, and it has my name above it. And the comments are hilarious because like you scroll down, and some people are they've got their opinions on money and blah, blah, blah. But there's a few of them that are like, man, he's really lost some weight after that movie, The Whale. He's looking good these days. And I I told my wife, I was like, Do we think they're kidding? Do we know if they're kidding? But anyways, it's not the actor. And and the worst part about it is that for the rest of my life, if you Google my name, it's basically he says, Did you mean to search Brendan Fraser, the actor? So I'll always play second fiddle, but I'm okay with that.

SPEAKER_00 2:46

Yeah, I was at a training last week and I had an advisor. I mentioned your podcaster, some of your work anyway, and he came up to me during a break and asked if I was referring to the actor. And I was like, No, I was like, he's better and much cooler, and you need to get on and follow his stuff, right?

SPEAKER_02 3:04

That remains up for debate. But okay, last thing on this, because I think it's funny, but so people think that because we have the same name, like I should know what he's up to in his life. So all the time people will be like, Oh, Brendan Fraser like the actor, huh? What's he up to these days? And I'm like, you know, I I'm not him. I couldn't tell you. Like again, this is not the same person.

SPEAKER_00 3:21

So yeah, that is fascinating. And I need to get on and do like some research around why people may make that kind of association because that is fascinating. That's fascinating. Well, I'm excited about our conversation today, Brendan, for a few reasons. One is that I get to hang out with you here for a little while, finding time to connect with people that you like professionals. Sometimes it's really hard to do. So selfishly, I'm excited that we get to hang out today. But the other is that I know our listeners are going to be leaving with so many practical nuggets, nuggets that they can begin implementing today in their practice and in their client meetings. And so that gets me excited. I want to just dive in. Let's just go into the deep end. I don't know how you get into a pool. I'm just like, oh, let's just jump in kind of personally.

SPEAKER_02 4:11

My kids push me in. So I it's not slow and easy. It is just an all-out push. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:17

Well, you know, maybe they might be telling you something. Diving in might be the better route there. But you talk a lot in your work around the art and kind of science of prospect and discovery meetings for advisors. And I think that you and I would both say that this initial period in the planning process really lays the foundation for the future client-advisor relationship. And so, from your perspective, what is the mental framework that an advisor needs to have going into a prospect or discovery meeting?

SPEAKER_02 5:00

Okay, so like you said, a lot of work around this. So I've got a lot of thoughts at the moment. So right now, I'm in my mind, I'm like, all right, how do I compartmentalize all these? I'm gonna start here at the highest level, I think, and say this, which is ultimately it's like, are prospect meetings the same as discovery meetings? Or are they two separate meetings? And I get that question quite a bit. Like, is my discovery meeting the first meeting? And so we have these names for these meetings. And I think it's important to point out that for right now, I'm gonna describe the difference as the prospect meeting, or I call it the intro meeting, doesn't matter. That meeting is like the first conversation that you've ever had with a prospective client. Meaning you maybe you've talked on the phone briefly to schedule it, maybe you've emailed, but this is your first like real in-depth meeting with a purpose. So that's number one. The discovery meeting, the way that I frame it is I break it into two. So the discovery meeting would be the next meeting after that, where you're diving in and talking more about their current situation, their goals, the things that they want to accomplish, where they're at financially. Basically, the here's where you are, here's where you are, and here's where you want to be conversation. Discovery. Now, you don't have to do them separately. I always thought that I did them separately because I didn't feel like I could accomplish what I needed to accomplish in both of those meetings. If I package it into one, I didn't feel like I could do it in under an hour. And so I just decided to separate them into two. But I get the question all the time, Bruna, does it have to be two or can I do it all in one? And my answer is always if you can accomplish what you need, what you set out to accomplish, and you can do it in one meeting and you can do it consistently, that's then you can do it in one. There's no rule that says that it has to be two. So that's I'll say that first and foremost.

SPEAKER_00 6:40

Yeah, I think that's an important distinction.

SPEAKER_02 6:42

You said another thing that I think is really crucial. It's not as tactical, it's not as practical, but it's something that nobody really thinks about, and that is what we call the downstream effects of these meetings. So you kind of alluded to the fact that these meetings sort of set the tone for the relationship. So I'd always try to point out in with both of these meetings that these meetings are setting the tone, they're setting the trajectory for the rest of your relationship. So if in those meetings you're not doing a good job of making them feel comfortable, making them getting them to feel comfortable opening up and talking with you and sharing with you personal sensitive information about their life that they don't share with anybody else, by the way, maybe one other person, but probably not. If you don't make it feel like they can do that safely and comfortably and come to you with these things, it doesn't just happen in one meeting. And then like three meetings later, or a year or two down the line, they're like, you know what, I feel comfortable all of a sudden. They'll always feel the same way, and you'll sit there and wonder, like, you know, why do I not get more referrals? Why is it that when I ask them to do something, they don't follow through? Like I've showed them if you do these things on your financial plan, then you'll be able to accomplish your goals. And there can be a lot of reasons for that. Don't get me wrong. Like, there's a whole field of behavior change out there that we could delve into to talk about that. But there's also the possibility that they don't fully trust you because at the very beginning you set the tone, you set the trajectory and the tone for the relationship that wasn't one of safety and trust. And I think we get we tend to get down the stream a little ways, and these flags or these red flags start popping, these warning signs start popping up, and we think that it's something current in the moment. Like, oh, it must have been something recent. It's like, no, this may have started from the very first conversation that you had. So I'll I'll pause there for a second, but I didn't even answer your ultimate question yet of like what are the frameworks to have.

SPEAKER_00 8:34

Well, you I mean, kinda in in a way, right? I love that you mentioned safety and trust. I mean, shockingly, right? My therapist started like exploding hearing you talk about safety and trust. But I mean, you kind of did, right? Because part of that mental framework, no matter how you view whether it's one meeting or two meetings, right, whether you're separating them or not. The framework needs to be that safety and trust have to come first in order to set this relationship in the right trajectory. How am I going to establish safety and trust out the gate with this client? I mean, I don't know. I'd turn it back over to you, just your thoughts kind of on the case.

SPEAKER_02 9:19

Yeah, no, I think if you look at if we think about just the first, the very first meeting, the intro, the prospect, first meeting you have with somebody, I always try to try to keep it as simple as possible. And if you look at psychology research and try to boil it down, ultimately what you come back to is in that first meeting, there are three questions that need to be answered in every prospect's mind. Do I like you? Do I trust you? And then do I feel certain or confident that you can solve the problem that I have or deliver the outcome that I'm looking for? And then while I'm on that, I always come back to Moira Summers, her stat, her quote that she's mentioned time and time again, author of the book, Advice That Sticks. If you haven't read it, it should be an absolute must read for any advisor. And she says she always says that client satisfaction in that first meeting is directly related to the amount of air time that they get. And it just so happens that part of building trust and getting somebody to like you also comes down to giving them the air time to feel heard and to feel understood. So just to keep it like if you're trying to think through, hey, what do I want to try to do in this meeting? It's I want them to like me, trust me, and then feel certain and confident that I can deliver the outcome or solve the problem that's on their mind. And I think anytime you think through what is it that I want to do in a meeting, like what is this meeting for? I'll just say this right before I forget. I would encourage everybody, if you want to optimize your meetings, you start by writing down the name of the meeting and then write a but the next two lines are purpose and feeling. What is the purpose of this meeting? What is it that needs to happen? What is it that we want to have happen for, and then what is the feeling is what is the feeling that I want that person to leave with when they walk away? Or what is the thing I want them to say to the first person they talk to after this meeting? And if you can get really clear and really focused on your purpose and the feeling that you want them to leave with for every single meeting you have, you're it's like the easiest way to instantly elevate your meetings.

SPEAKER_00 11:09

Yeah. Well, and going back to that trust factor too, right? I think it just speaks volumes too, clients being able to trust you. And we talk kind of in mental health, mental health research, and maybe, you know, maybe you're familiar with this, is that it's not so much the model in which you're practicing from a client satisfaction or rapport place. It's not, it doesn't matter so much what model you're using. You could be using cognitive behavioral therapy, emotionally focused EMDR, IFS, whatever it is. That's actually not what matters. What matters is the rapport and the relationship from a client outcome, from a success from a satisfaction standpoint. And so it reminds me, like hearing you say that, it reminds me a little bit kind of of that, is that if you can put the relationship, that safety and trust at the forefront from the get-go in that intro discovery meeting, you'll be on the right path. You'll be on the right trajectory, the outcome, the follow-through around your advice, it'll be a lot, as uh our friend Meg Lurt says, stickier. It'll start.

SPEAKER_02 12:15

Yeah, it reminds me of, and I this research I think actually started or comes from the therapy world, therapy field, but basically client outcomes, therapy and financial advice are directly tied to the relationship that you have with the client or with the patient. I mean, in fact, there's Christy Arch let us mentioned before, there's research out there that says that the number one predictor of financial success for a client is the relationship that you have with the client or their relationship with the advisor. Now, big asterisk next to that. It's not actually number one. Number one is receiving a massive inheritance or windfall of some sort. So it's like, okay, all right, aside from winning the lottery or like a loved one passing away and inheriting tons of money, the number one uh contributor to their success is the relationship that we have with the point, which I know comes from the therapy world. And I is it Carl Rogers? Is that his name? Do you know?

SPEAKER_00 13:07

Yeah, oh yeah, you got my boy.

SPEAKER_01 13:09

I forget the term.

SPEAKER_00 13:10

I mean, I wish he was. I wish he was my boy. Yeah, same, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:13

Yeah, same here. I I do too.

SPEAKER_00 13:16

I wish he's our boy. He's he yeah, our boy. He has rest in peace, long past, unfortunately. I know that you're familiar with the story, and I wish that I could pull up the picture, but you and I both know the power of shutting up and just listening and asking questions. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 13:34

Part of my story with my very cute husband, Clayton, is recently married for 16 years, if I'm not mistaken.

SPEAKER_00 13:44

Yeah, thank you. Thank you for having me. Right. But we, I know we've shared that story like with you. Like, there's power in just asking questions and listening. And if you're not careful, it can land you a wife. Uh, that's what happened for Clayton Kwame. He can addest to that. But all jokes kind of uh aside there, being able to have that air time allows you as the client to feel seen and heard and valued and cared for. And you said something a minute ago that is very true. You, as the advisor, just might be the only person in your client's life that they can talk to you about money with, they can share their hopes and dreams with, that they can share their financial successes with. And so I think sometimes as practitioners, we don't really realize or understand the value or where we place ourselves in our clients' lives and knowing where we fit in and how all that works. So there's a lot of power there. And I mean, power as in like influence and impact that we can have on those clients.

SPEAKER_02 14:47

That's exactly right. And it's one of those things, it's really easy. I think we all know it at our core, how important that is. We all know when we sense it, when we feel it. Like I feel heard and understood. And I mean, all you have to do is go back and think. I use this example a lot, but go back and think about the last time you had a conversation with somebody where you left thinking, man, that was a lot of fun. I really enjoyed that conversation. Or I really want to hang out with that person again. Or you like I left an event the other day and I got in the car and I told my wife, I was like, I really like them. We need to hang out with them more often. Well, when we go back and we replay that conversation, guess who was talking more than I was? Okay, sorry, guess who was doing most of the talking and that conversation? Me, right, yeah. And and I even later told her, I was like, You're one of the best question askers I've ever met. And and it's not surprising to go, hey, when somebody is genuinely interested in you, curious in you, asks you questions, wants to know about you, helps you process and thinks through think through things, like we like those people. It signals to us that they're interested in us, that we like them, and we feel comfortable opening up and sharing things with them. I mean, if we want to really get into it, it's literally it's in our brains that when you get to talk about yourself, there's a chemical that lights up the reward center of the brain. It feels like eating chocolate and sexual activity. So it's like if you want somebody to like you and feel good talking to you, just get them to talk about themselves. That's what most people want to do all the time. But especially, especially if they're in this first meeting where they've decided that they need to talk to a stranger about their money.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

Yeah. So from a mental framework, right? Again, recapping kind of as here is putting that kind of cap on and saying, how can I make my client feel seen and heard? How can I come across as likable, right? How can I earn their trust? All of those things, right? That kind of sits there with them. So, okay, we have this mental framework then for how we need to go into these meetings. And I know that you've shared a little bit of from a tips kind of standpoint here, some things, right, to kind of help with that. But what are some of the other, maybe I don't want to say basic because that might diminish actually how hard they are, but what are some of the other skills that advisors should be focusing on or honing in this initial part of the relationship?

SPEAKER_02 17:06

Hang on, I've got one more thing. Yeah, we got to add to the middle framework part for this like first meeting with the process, because I think it's really, really important as far as, and it kind of answers this the question you just asked as well. So we've been talking sort of about the framework around the conversational dynamic and building trust and some of the skills that are involved in doing. I mean, we could go deeper into that as well. But I do think anytime you're thinking about a framework for a meeting, how to have the best meeting possible, yes, you want to write out the purpose. You want to think about the feeling that you want them to leave with. But I think the part that we maybe most overlook is taking just a second to think, let's put ourselves inside their mind for a second, right? And think about what they are experiencing and feeling. And I don't think you can design or really deliver the best possible experience in that meeting if you haven't considered what it is that they're experiencing, what it is they're feeling as they come in. So let's think about this for a second. Because again, again, I mentioned this because I don't I feel like you can have the conversational skills, but then you have to have this as the backbone of it. So the person that's coming in, you've never met with them before. What I can almost certainly guarantee you is that they didn't wake up the day that they decided to reach out and schedule a meeting. They didn't wake up and think to themselves, if I had a blank slate today, what's the number one thing that I would want to do that would sound like the most fun? And they what they wouldn't say is they wouldn't say, I want to go talk to a stranger about my money. I mean, it just doesn't happen. This isn't something that people are saying, I would I can't wait to do this. It's like I've got to schedule a dentist appointment, right? I've been needed to schedule it for a while. So I don't, yeah, we won't go there, but it's on my to-do list. And guess what? I guess why I keep putting it off because I don't want to go. But why am I scheduling it? I'm scheduling it because I have a problem that I need to solve. Just so it happens that that problem is my wife constantly telling me I need to go to the dentist. And I do, I know that I need to go. It's good hygiene, right? It is, but we have to remember that they're there for a real like something was just was strong enough in them, something was bothering them enough, something was motivating enough to get them to find to reach out to talk to a stranger about their money. So the first thing I would say there is we owe it to them at some point early in the conversation to let them get that off their chest and off of their mind and open up and find out, hey, I recognize you got to come up with your own language. I liked having fun with it and just saying, hey, I recognize that most people don't say if I could do anything today, I would go talk to a financial advisor. And I'm okay with that. But it does beg the question I've got to ask, what was it that prompted this? Well, like what led you to decide to come in? What made you decide to reach out to set up this conversation? Right? Just set the table, find out what it is that's on their mind. So that's number one. The other thing I think we need to do is think about what is it that they're probably feeling or experiencing coming in. And odds are they're not walking in think feeling good and happy. I mean, they can't, I'm saying not saying they're not happy, but they're probably feeling a certain level of anxiety, a certain level of uncertainty, vulnerability, right? Like they're about to get, I know people have said this before, this is nothing new, but they're about to essentially get financially naked. Right? And there's Megan Lurch has written about this. I don't know, I can't remember who did the research, but she wrote an article where the number one factor, the number one driver of financial advisor anxiety is the fear that they don't have the financial literacy, which translates to they're afraid of hearing jargon and not understanding what's going to be said. So we've got these clients that are coming in, something's prompted it, or prospects, something's prompted it. They're feeling a little bit anxious, uncertain, vulnerable, right? And at the same time, they're fearful that they won't understand some of the jargon and language that's being used. So I think we have to take that knowledge and ask ourselves, okay, what can we do to lower anxiety levels? What can we do to lower uncertainty? What can we do to help them feel more comfortable being vulnerable and sharing this personal sensitive information? And you can't have the best possible meeting experience until you've thought through and addressed what is it they're thinking, feeling, and experiencing, and what do I, what am I going to do about that?

SPEAKER_00 21:16

What do they think feel do? What do you think feel do? I echo and agree with every everything. And one of the things that I share with advisors from a perspective place is, you know, you have to remember that you talk about numbers and see numbers all day long. You see plans, portfolios, you see them all day long. And your threshold, your comfortability for being able to talk about this is likely far greater than your clients. There's also the dynamic here is that it's not yours. It's not your plan and your portfolio. It's not your numbers. And that can hit a little bit different, which is why. I think that it's really important for advisors to experience what it is like being a client. Whether that is, don't throw daggers, audience members here, but whether that's going through therapy and experiencing vulnerability through that place of being on the other side, whether that is having your own advisor or maybe even your own coach. But there's this place, I think, from a practitioner place of realizing that you're comfortable, what you're comfortable with is likely not what your clients. I talk emotions a lot in excess. You can ask my family. I'm very comfortable talking, talking about that. I have to recognize that oftentimes others that I'm interacting with or engaging with professionally, they may not have that same comfortability or threshold. So meeting clients where they are, right? And being able to kind of suss that out, like where are they with their comfortability? I think is also something to add here, right? And being able to kind of start off on the right foot.

SPEAKER_02 23:01

Yep, no doubt. And I think giving them the permission to let their guard down from the very beginning, just saying something along the lines of, all right, so as we as we go through the, and this is maybe probably more so for later on in the relationship or the process, like you're probably not doing a whole lot of explaining and talking and portfolio discussions and financial planning strategy in a first meeting or two. Maybe some, like you might do a little bit here and there, but for the most part, this probably applies later on. But we'll just it can apply across the board. But just giving them the permission and by starting out and saying, by the way, yeah, I want you to feel 100% comfortable asking any question that comes to mind. Every now and then we try to do our best not to like bring this down, or we try to do our best. We try to do our best to make all of this make sense. Every now and then, like we may we may go off and use a term or say something that you're not familiar with. And if that's the case, that's our fault. It's not yours. Feel free to stop us in any stop me at any point and ask any question that comes to mind. Now you give them the permission to do that, right? And I would like obviously I sort of I didn't I would practice that a little bit before I went off and said it like that, but that's the gist of it, right? And then uh it's been a little while, and then secondarily, like just having checkpoints, is secondarily a word? I mean either words. Let's make it one. All right, yeah, yeah. Secondly, next thing is having checkpoints throughout the conversation where you just check in. You don't say, Does that make sense? Right? Because if you ask that, the the the default answer is gonna be well, yes, because they don't want to sound dumb, right? And and if you have a way you like to do this, chime in or let me know, because it very well could be another better way to say, but it's some version of did I explain that well? I don't even like that either, actually. Now that I say that love. What's a better way? Another way to say it would be are there any gaps in am I leaving any gaps in that explanation, right? Or what what do you do you have anything that you like to say there?

SPEAKER_00 24:55

Yeah, I'll say like, you know, some kind of version really of that, or how is that landing on you right now? Or yeah, what thoughts are coming to mind as you hear me say that? Is there anything I can clarify maybe for you around insert X?

SPEAKER_02 25:12

So yeah, I think all of those are the back the underlying assumption or the underlying feeling or meaning behind it is it's not, hey, is there anything you're not understanding? It's hey, is there anything that I didn't explain well enough and thoroughly to give you the clarity that you need, right? So it's this humble place of however you want to word it, that's the meaning behind it is it it did. I do a good enough job explaining this.

SPEAKER_00 25:37

Right. Yeah, yeah. It's not you, it's me.

SPEAKER_02 25:40

Yeah, yeah, right. Right, right. It's not you, it's me, yeah. Flashback to dating relationships. All right, sorry, go ahead.

unknown 25:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:47

But yeah, I was never the one that got to say that. I was the one that heard it.

SPEAKER_00 25:50

Uh no, I wasn't either. It was usually me. It was definitely usually me. Yeah. Well, until you know, I got to talk about myself for an entire date, and then that worked out well. Okay, because I would be so frustrated with myself if we didn't at least start to go here. I want to talk about listening, listening skills. What are your best tips, insights?

SPEAKER_02 26:13

So we'll go, we'll do it like this. I'll give you like some the knowledge or some stats that help. Then we'll go like next level down is like, okay, how do we approach it? And then the th the very third level is very tactically, what can you do to improve, right? So I think at the highest level, like we you have to believe in and understand the importance and the power, quite frankly, of listening. Right. So mentioned earlier, we know that if you can get somebody to talk about themselves, that it lights up the reward center of the brain. So that's that's one thing that's number one. Number two is there's, and by the way, if you want to if you want to feel really compelled about the power of listening, I'm gonna turn my chair here. There's a book behind me, you can't see it, unfortunately, called You're Not Listening. And there's a lot in there on the neuroscience of listening and how powerful it actually is. But there's some research out there that shows that if you truly and and will listen to somebody, like actually listen and dial in with empathy and curiosity, that not only does it make them more rep receptive to you when you talk. So if you do, if you listen for somebody else, they they feel almost obligated when you talk to listen better, to take it and receive it differently. But they also found that your brain waves start to sink and connect with the other person if you're truly emotionally engaged in listening, right? And so this isn't a manipulative thing, it's just like these are this is a powerful technique to improve trust, to improve connection, to help somebody open up, to get them to trust you. And then the last thing I think about as far as this top level philosophically importance of listening, I'll say this is in again in that book, there's research that more research that was done. This research found that they go out and they ask people, hey, how many people do you have in your life that you feel truly listen to you? And the majority of people said that they had nobody. There's a few people that there are some people that said they have one person, there's some people that said they have two, but those are in the minority. The vast majority, not the vast majority, but the majority said they have nobody in their life that'll actually listen to them, which to me I think is kind of sad. But that's another topic for another time. Then you go ask the people who said they have one or two people in their lives who truly actually listen to them. You ask who it is, and it's almost always a close family member or a best friend. Again, not surprising. But why is that important? Why do we say that as far as like the power of listening? Because imagine if you can be somebody that actually creates the space for them to feel comfortable, opening up and sharing with you, and they say, Yeah, Ashley's somebody who actually listens to me. You've instantly elevated yourself on this trust spectrum up to the same level as some of their family and best friends. Not saying you have to be that close with them. If you some people want to be that with their clients, that's great. Some people don't. It doesn't mean you're going to be their best friend. It just means like on this scale of trust, it's a way to elevate yourself to the same level as close family members and best friends. So it's a powerful thing that most people just simply don't do, and most of us don't have that in our lives. That's why is listening important? So if that's the case, what can what do we need to know about how to do it better? That's kind of the next step from there for me. And so how do you do it better? This is the part nobody likes to hear because it's not super practical. But as I started researching it, practicing it, teaching it, what I found, what I kept coming back to was anytime you try to get better at listening, you find the people that do it well who have success with it, and those that don't, you dive in, you go, hey, what are the the group that's doing it well, what are they saying? Inevitably, the people that do it well came back to one of the common threads was that you come back to is mindset and approach. So, in other words, they would go into conversations very intentionally with an intentional mindset. So, like, for example, I can think to back to an advisor who said he would create a 10-minute block before every meeting where he would sit there and for like five minutes he would meditate. For the next five minutes, he would review his notes and then go into the meeting thinking, I'm gonna do a better, I'm gonna like really truly listen to what it is that they have to say. Like that's a that's a mindset and approach to intentionally go, hey, I'm going to listen with lit with empathy and curiosity. But then there's also like to get in the right mindset, there's things like making sure that your phone's on do not disturb, right? Sit putting it on do not disturb, putting it in a drawer. We talked about this right before the podcast, so good timing there. But the act of so for me at this point, the act of doing that, picking up my phone before meeting, going and putting it on do not disturb, setting it uh away out of sight is now just like this subconscious reminder for me that it's time to listen. It's time to get into listening mode. Megan Lurch uses this example where she's like, she, I think it's funny, but it's true. It's like, did you eat an in like a massive lunch before you're about to have an important conversation with somebody? Because you're probably not going to be mentally ready and prepared to truly listen. And then on the flip side, it's like, have you not eaten all day? Well, you're probably not going to be in the right space to truly listen. Right. And you know this as well as anybody from therapy world, but even things like being rested, right? Knowing how many meetings you can have before your emotional capacity wears out.

SPEAKER_00 31:12

Going to the bathroom before you have those conversations. Yeah, right. That's right. Not that I've ever had to say, hey, I'm sorry, client, but I've got to go to the potty uh right now. And I need to do that so that I can continue listening to you for the remainder of our time. So those are early lessons you learn the hard way sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 31:32

And you're trying to help people learn it before it actually happens to them. So very tactically, like some of those are still tactical, but if you want to be a good really good listener, if you want to like elevate your listening skills in the next conversation in a way that makes the biggest difference, it's not that these tactics that are gonna make the biggest difference, it's truly your mindset. Going in with this mindset of they have valuable information that I want to, I'm curious and interested to learn about from them. In order to do that, I've got to truly listen to what they're saying. So mindset makes the biggest difference. The only problem is it's not sexy, nobody likes to hear it, so it's not that fun to talk about.

SPEAKER_00 32:09

Before you jump into this tactical, one of the things, and I'm I'm kind of curious to hear maybe your thoughts on this. So I agree with the mindset piece. One of the things, in addition, right, to that, maybe it's not super sexy, is that when you're in these meetings with clients, you can go into the meeting and go, I'm gonna be the best daggum listener. I've meditated, I've gone to the bathroom, I've done all these right kind of things. But when you're in those meetings and listening, there is an element in how I frame it, right, wrong, or whatever, is you have to be able to let go of your own ego in order to really be present and listen. And what I mean by that is I think sometimes as practitioners, we get into these meetings and clients start talking and maybe we get a little excited because we know the answer. We know how to help, or we know the things to say, right, about that. And I think in that place of excitement, sometimes that ego part of us can come out. Um inadvertently, what we've done is we've entirely overrided the meeting and we've made it about us instead of making it about them. And so, just in addition to all of the brilliant kind of mindset nuggets here, I would really encourage you, those of you that are listening right now, I would really encourage you to really check that ego, right? Or have something like maybe on a sticky note that reminds you, right, that it's not about you in those meetings, it is about them.

SPEAKER_02 33:45

Yeah, I think that's exactly right. There's a quote that I think came from I don't I'd make it, I don't know if I'm pronouncing this name right, from Michael Bungay Steiner or Steiner.

SPEAKER_03 33:55

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:55

That Carl Richards says all the time that I love. And it's one that I sit there, I listen to, and I'm like, man, I really wish I would have come up with that. That's so good. But, anyways, he always said, like the version of it that I always hear is like stay curious a little bit longer. Just stay curious. You may know the answer already right away, but until somebody feels thoroughly heard, diagnosed, and understood, they're not gonna be as willing and receptive to hear your answer and your recommendations or your knowledge. And so it's like you got you, you really have to restrain yourself and go, have that have I given them the opportunity to fully say unload, I don't really like that word, but to fully like let go of or empty their thoughts and emotions because until then they're never gonna hear or receive the message the way that you want them to.

SPEAKER_00 34:37

Yeah, for sure. All right, I interrupted you. My ego. My ego got in the way and interrupted you. Hey, I can do some good modeling here.

SPEAKER_02 34:46

That was a um that was a great ego insertion. I think that was a necessary one. So a couple more things. More practically speaking. So if you're you, let's say you you believe in it, you're doing the mindset thing, you've got you're like, all right, I'm getting in the right mindset, phones on do not disturb. I've got space and time in between my meetings. So then the next thing is start thinking, all right, how can I, if you're in the right mindset going into the meeting, it doesn't mean you're just gonna stay dialed in. You've got to have like things that keep you anchored, that bring you back, that help you stay in the mindset because, like you said, your ego is probably gonna take over and you're gonna want to talk and share because remember, talking about yourself feels really good. So, number one, and these are just things that I did or I know other advisors do that help. So one is writing on somewhere on your screen on a notepad, either 8020 or WAIT or STFU. Not gonna say what that one is, but W I T A I T is why am I talking? 8020 is like an 80-20 listen to talk ratio. Now everybody's always like, oh, Brendan, what? 80 to 20, 8020, that's not a good idea. You can't do that. That's why would you why would you force somebody to this strict 80-20 world? It's like, no, no, no, no. This is just like a an approach to say strive for 8020. And you're probably not, yeah, exactly. Right. So for a while when I was having meetings, I would run this meeting analyzer in the background. And so it would track and summarize the conversation. But the whole reason that I used it was it would track talk time. And so I would go into these conversations, writing 80-20 on my paper, thinking, all right, I'm gonna ask a lot of good questions. So I had the mindset right, the tactics right. I would get done, the meeting report would come back, I would go click on it and be like, I bet I crushed this. And it'd be like they talked 57% of the time, you talked 43. And I was like, what? I tried so hard. And that's still this like 57 to 43. So it's just something to strive for to keep you in a listening mindset. That's number one. Next thing I would say is, and this is just for me. So you have to figure out what works for you to some degree, too. But anytime I'm in a meeting or doing the podcast, that's where I do like most of my conversations and listening these days, but even in meetings, like I would have a question framework built out on a piece of paper, but in between each question was tons of space. It wasn't like bullet point enter, bullet point enter. It would be like bullet point space, space, space, space, space, space, space, space, space, space, space, bullet point questions, space, space, space, space, space. And so it just for me, psychologically, it was like, hey, there is a lot that you need to explore and uncover within each one of these. And I found that I was more, I was better at deepening those conversations with the space than I was when they were just like one bullet point after another. And I think it's just this psychological reminder of, hey, Phil, there's a lot to uncover. You can't just ask the question, dive deeper into what they say. It's a reminder to to dive in, to explore. And then last thing, you can't talk about listening without also talking about questions. So at least that's how I believe that's how I see it, anyways. And so oftentimes you can do a really good job listening, you can be engaged, but how do they know that you're even if you're like actually dialed in and listening and you're feeling the emotion behind what they're saying? That's a whole nother conversation, by the way. It's like people will tell you one thing, but what they say is often not what they really mean, and like a good listener dives into the meaning behind it.

SPEAKER_00 38:07

Right. The power of mirroring. Yes, right.

SPEAKER_02 38:11

So that goes along those lines. It's like, how do you let somebody know that you're listening? How do they feel heard and understood? So a few things. One is just simply asking really good, curious follow-up questions. That's the most I think the most powerful question you can ask is a follow-up question because it signals to that person that you actually heard what they said and you're interested and want to know more. I was talking to a friend just today who was saying how she just changed jobs, and people say, So what's your job now? And she'll say, I'm a financial advisor. She's like, I don't know if they really want to know more, if they're just asking to be nice. And it's like, I've got a pretty good barometer for you. When you tell them, do they ask you another question? She's like, No, not usually. It's like, well, then they're probably just asking to be nice, right? If people really want to know and they're really interested, follow-up questions naturally occur. And so if you can use that skill to demonstrate to other people that you care and that you're listening. And then the the last thing I'll say as far as like, how do you demonstrate that you're listening so they feel heard and understood is what we call capturing the essence of what somebody said. Or you can think of it as like paraphrasing. I don't really like that world, the word paraphrasing, but sort of like summarizing the essence of what they said. So when somebody goes on this long, you ask them, hey, what brought you in today? And they give you all these reasons about why they came in, came in, then you just say like repeat back and say, okay, so it sounds like the main things that are on your mind are making sure that you've got your retirement savings fully set up and ready to go so that you're not forced to work any longer than you have to. And in that, by the way, you're doing what you just said, which is mirroring a little bit and giving the words that they use right back to them. But you don't repeat verbatim, you don't repeat word for word, but it's just sort of this idea of like, if I understand correctly, here's what I hear you say. It sounds like this is the case. And so you're just trying to capture the essence of what they said to where they go, either one of two things happen. They go, Yeah, that's exactly right. And you go, okay, good, nice. And then they feel like, all right, this person understands me, or they'll say, uh, you know, that's not exactly it. And guess what never happens? That well, I shouldn't say never. Guess what very rarely happens? They don't go, my gosh, I can't, Brendan doesn't even listen to me. He completely missed that. He missed the everything that I was trying to say. They what they do is they go, I probably didn't explain that right. So and they're hearing it back for the first time, oftentimes, by the way, right? So you hear it back, you're like, that's not exactly it. Here's what I meant by that. And so then you actually, instead of operating in uh with in incomplete information or inaccurate information based on what you think that you heard, you actually operate with better information just by getting them to clarify what they actually meant. But doing that signals to them or lets them know this person's this person's listening.

SPEAKER_00 40:51

Absolutely. Yeah, I would agree. All right, Brendan, we have talked about a lot and getting to kind of one of the points that you made earlier in an email, and we were going back and forth. You said, man, both of us talking about something that we really like for only like 40-ish minutes will probably be the hardest thing, right?

SPEAKER_01 41:09

And yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:11

I I am feeling that right now. Like this is a conversation that is hard to wrap up. I'm envisioning a lot of future, a lot of future episodes and conversations here. But unfortunately, that time has come. And I want to wrap us up by asking more of a personal question uh for you. So I want to take a look kind of in the rear view mirror for a second. And if you were to go back, I don't know, five, maybe 10 years, knowing everything that you know now about just in life in general, right? So not just professional, but your personal, personal side too. What are three tips from a well-being place? What are three tips that you would offer younger Brendan as far as how he could take better care of himself?

SPEAKER_02 42:01

Great question. Also, hard question. I always feel bad on my show when I have these questions at the end that I ask, and I'm like, these I sometimes feel bad. I'm like, I know this is hard, but you like what would you do?

SPEAKER_00 42:12

Yeah, your questions were brutal. I was like, this is brutal. I don't want I don't I felt like a toddler. I was like, I don't want to answer these. These are but I like it though.

SPEAKER_02 42:19

This is like an example of a great question that is powerful, impactful, that I should know the answer to, but don't until you ask it. So it forced me to kind of sit there and reflect on it. And I did, I tried not to do the thing where you answer the first three things that come to mind. So then I sat there and thought about it a little bit more. I'm not sure these are the definite three, but they're three that would certainly be up there in the conversation. I think one of them's for sure. Okay, so one thing that I would go back and it's it's the idea is like, what would you go back and tell yourself? One would be spend more time. Uh let me frame it this way. I think of this as like, what are three things that I wish I would have invested in more so that would be paying dividends today, compounding growth dividends. One is investing more in friendships and relationships and community, right? So, like uh, especially after having had kids, it becomes a lot harder at that point. But I think just recently, for whatever reason, it's been on my mind through some podcast conversations and some research that I've been doing on my own, just how important social connections and relationships are to overall well-being. That's not anything mind-blowing, right? But then I started doing a little bit of like a uh social audit, if you will, friendship audit. And it's like I've got some friendships that I have sort of like they're there, but they're not as strong as they used to be that I wish that I would have like I and I want to resuscitate them now, but I if I could go back, I'd be like, hey, really identify and prioritize those friendships that you have and don't let them wane. Invest in them, invest in them, stay strong. So that's number one. Number two is investing more so in my health through through more like intentional strength training type workouts. So I've I've Fortunately, gotten back into it over the last six months or so and can just feel the difference. Not just, I mean, mentally, yeah, but like even with hanging out with my kids, having more energy and endurance. And then you like, you know, you listen to any of these health experts out there, like Peter Atia, Andrew Huberman, other people that are out there in the world that know these things, and it's like strength training is truly like uh it's not a superpower. But in terms of like living your best life, you're gonna be able to live a better life as you age and your health declines. That's a way to fight against it. So that's another one. I've never like let it go to though, I don't know what word to use that's podcast purpose. I've never just let it fall apart, right? I've always like done a decent thing. But I haven't prioritized it. So I'd invest more in that. And then the last one is investing more in like a competition and a skill that I can devote time to honing and getting better at. It's something that's come to light. Actually, in the last few months, I had a podcast episode with uh a guy named Andy Baxley, he's an advisor, and he took me through his process for helping people identify like what's important to them and their statement of financial purpose. And through that, I was sitting there going, When I'm at my best, I've got a craft that I'm learning and honing and getting better at. And so whether that's pickleball, whether that's golf, whether it's like trying to learn a new hobby, like playing the guitar or something like I'm at my best when I've got something to like be active and competitive with and work towards. And so I'm trying to find ways to bring that back into my life. So what I would say five or 10 years ago is I wish I would have been doing more of that.

SPEAKER_00 45:31

I love that. Out of those three that you mentioned, are any of them presently what we're working on crafting and honing? Just out of curiosity.

SPEAKER_02 45:39

Oh, in terms of like those three things pickleball, golf, yeah. No, and it's kind of like it's one of those deals where I sit there and I'm like, am I just procrastinating because I don't know what to do? Am I not making the time for it? Right. And so, but it it's some it's on my mind. I just need to like I keep going back to the excuse of like, I've got this job and I'm traveling and got kids, and it's like if I'm gonna do something, I need to go all in on it. And I'm afraid of going all in at a time in my life when I don't know that I can go all in. This is I this can easily turn into an entire therapy session, by the way. But so it at this point, I don't I don't know. Golf's expensive too, by the way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. T B determined. But here's the thing here's what I like about it is that if I like if it's pickleball or golf or some activity, there's also oftentimes like a social element to it, right? A social component. So then you're checking off two boxes.

SPEAKER_00 46:29

Killing two birds with one stone. So you're right. Yeah, yeah. I I like I like that. Well, Brendan, you have been such an amazing conversation partner. Not that I had any doubts that you wouldn't be. Share with us a little bit where can people find you these days? Where are you hanging out? Uh, and professionally, anything cool you're working on.

SPEAKER_02 46:49

Yeah, so by the way, I just to be always wondering, I'm not um the irony of the fact that I'm sitting here talking the entire time while preaching the importance of listening is not lost on me. I do recognize that that's happening, and it's very ironic and feels weird. So I like hosting because I get to like sit back and ask the questions. Um But no, so okay, so um on LinkedIn, on Twitter, writing a newsletter and a blog for RFG on all things, for advisors on all things, applying emotion, behavior, and psychology into the financial planning process. Uh, but the cool thing that I've got to do, and part of the reason why I'm um at RFG is because I'm beginning to do some client-facing content. And so we've got a video series, a YouTube series that's starting, actually just started or launched yesterday. Uh, depending on when you listen to this, that's not gonna help. But ultimately, it's like helping to spread and create more awareness for ever not just advisors, right, but clients, everyday people, that there is more to this money thing than just what you see on spreadsheets and logic, that there is this emotional component to it. And so just the opportunity to do that and create content around that and spread that message is it's kind of been revitalizing in a way. Like advisors are my favorite people to work with, but it's been a cool challenge to try to like redirect and reframe these thoughts in a way that resonates with not advisors, but clients or everyday folk.

SPEAKER_00 48:18

Yeah, I love that. What a cool project. I can't wait to check that out and follow along on that journey. For all of you out there tuning in, thank you for allowing Brendan and I into your ears and into your mind today. Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going beyond. Thanks for joining me on this episode of Planning and Beyond. I hope you found today's insights valuable and inspiring for both your practice and your personal growth. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. Your feedback helps us reach more advisors like you who are dedicated to making a difference. For more resources, tips, and to continue the conversation, visit our website at beyond thefp.com. You'll find articles, tools, and information about upcoming episodes designed to support your journey and practice. Stay connected with us on social media and never miss an update. Follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn. And remember, the best way to grow is to keep learning and sharing. Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going before.