SPEAKER_01 0:00

He got murdered. He had to uh drink hemlock. And the reason why, because he was running around inciting the youth, asking, asking people too many questions.

SPEAKER_00 0:10

Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the podcast where financial advising meets the art of meaningful conversations. I'm your host, Ashley Kwame. As a certified financial behavior specialist and a passionate advocate for personal growth, I'm here to help you elevate your practice and deepen your connections with clients. In each episode, we dive into the intersection of psychology, therapy, and financial advising. You'll discover practical strategies, insightful stories, and expert interviews that will empower you to not only excel in your profession, but also thrive in your personal life. Together, we'll explore the human side of financial planning, from understanding client emotions to mastering the nuances of effective communication. We'll also focus on your own growth because the best advisors are those who are continually evolving. Get ready to transform your practice and yourself. This is Planning and Beyond. Welcome to the Planning and Beyond podcast. I am your host, Ashley Kwame. I'm joined today for episode three of the series, uh, Understanding the Intersection of Psychology and Financial Planning. Episode three here with Dr. Megan Lurtz, uh friend and colleague. We've had two other fantastic conversations. If you have not checked those out, please be sure to do that. The first one on really the client side, the client relationship, why is the client relationship important? Um, episode two, we dove into the advisor side. So advisor biases, kind of self-work, all of that jazz. Um, practical takeaways. I think from both of those conversations, in my opinion, at least.

SPEAKER_01 1:59

I'll second it. I'll second it. Thank you. I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_00 2:02

Uh today we're gonna dive into something that you know I find there's a lot of buzz around, a lot of interest. Um, I get you know questions or get asked this. Uh, and so I thought maybe I would talk to the expert on this today. We're gonna talk about questions. Uh and so yeah, Meg, I'm I'm gonna put you out there as the questions expert in financial planning. Um I think others would agree. You'd write a lot about I write about it a lot.

SPEAKER_01 2:43

I write about it a lot.

SPEAKER_00 2:44

Yeah, I've learned a lot from some kind of a thing. I know I've I've learned a lot like uh from you. Even, you know, as a therapist, I jokingly kind of say to my clients, although it's not really a joke, it's actually pretty serious, it's actually pretty true, is that my job is to be nosy about your life. And being nosy is asking a lot of questions. Like I need to ask questions in order to understand so that then I can help you change, transform, process whatever it is that you need to do. And really, for advisors, it's no different. Um, you're nosy question askers. Um, that might sound offensive to some people, but we want to talk about questions, how to do them. Um, I know that you have put out there into the world some brilliant, fantastic lists of questions and have done seminars, webinars, presentations on all of that. And I think that that's helpful. But let's talk about what makes a good question, why maybe questions are a good starting place for could be a good starting place for doing client relationships maybe differently or trying to, what was it, episode one? I think you talked about kind of digging in a little bit, a little bit more. But uh yeah, let's start with yeah, maybe understanding what made what do you think makes a good question in financial planning as far as understanding maybe clients' attitudes, beliefs, behaviors. I'm curious, your curious your answer.

SPEAKER_01 4:15

So, a part of one of the talks that I give, um, I talk about actually how you shouldn't ask questions. And I I oftentimes say to people, Do you know what happened to Socrates? And they're all kind of like thinking a second, they're like, he died, right? And you're like, Yeah, you know, yeah, he got murdered, he had to uh drink hemlock. And the reason why, because he was running around inciting the youth, asking, asking people too many questions. And so the act of asking a question, like what this does to your brain, it the brain, the brain hears it, you know, it hears that little like up sound at the end, the intonation of it, and it starts to think there's a right answer here. And what is it? Because we don't want to be wrong. And now, you know, compound that to where now we're talking about money and like the decisions that we have made, and being wrong, you know, doesn't feel awesome. So certainly in those like initial conversations that you're having with a client, or uh if you know that, you know, there there's just like something highly emotional has happened. Maybe it's good, maybe it's bad, but something highly emotional has happened, we need to start with questions. But instead of questioning people, we want to command information or we want to invite a conversation. And so I think that thinking of commands and invitations is a little bit, and I give I give this example in the talk, but I think it helps to hear the difference. So my husband is a very good cook, and uh, you even seen witnesses. Yeah, excellent cook, very bad dishwasher. And so I could I could walk in, you know, and I could say what's your plan for those dishes? This is a question. It's leading. I can guarantee his brain is thinking, well, how should I, how should I respond to that? We're thinking, we're thinking. I could say, instead of, what's your plan for these dishes? I could say, tell me your plans for these dishes. You know, to to my husband who knows me pretty well, this is probably still a bit leading, but certainly sounds better than like, what's your plan for these dishes? Last but not least, you know, I could invite, I could say, babe, this was a great meal. I wonder, I'm I'm sure that you have a plan for those dishes that doesn't involve me. Would you mind sharing it with me? Now, this is an invitation. Which one of these that we're all we're all gonna get all three are we're gonna get what's gonna happen with the dishes, but one of them, two of them, are a little softer, you know, and dishes are not college accounts or what happens after a divorce, or you know, we think we're asking a very mundane question like, um, what have you saved so far with college? Yeah. We don't, we don't think about the because we ask that all the time. And I know, I know every advisor out there is thinking, like, well, yeah, I need to know that number. I I know you do. And I know that you don't mean anything about asking it because all you're thinking about is we'll just put it in that time value money calculator, and I will know how much money we need. And it is okay that you don't have all the money right now. I know that that's what the financial advisor is thinking, but the client is thinking, I don't even know what the 529 plan is, let alone, you know, like how many dot like my kids smart, I'm worried that they're gonna want to go to like some place and then I'm gonna have like I'm not even there yet. So that that's the what version. You know, what have you saved so far for college? Okay, tell me, tell me where you're at with college savings. Better, you know, or you know, hey, I can tell that this college thing is like on your mind. Would you be willing to share with me where things are at with that? Same information every time. Softer ways to do it. Are we inviting a conversation? Are we commanding some information? Or are we asking a question that just that automatically can feel a little bit like that's I didn't, I words back in mouth, I didn't I didn't mean to start that way.

SPEAKER_00 8:39

Well, and I think too, like what you I don't what I don't think that people in general, I don't want to just say like advisory people, they don't realize sometimes is that on the receiving end of that what kind of question, you know, what have you saved for your 520? Like there's a defensiveness that like brute, like you're trying, like it's a defensive like feeling, right? And it's very emotional, right? And in terms of an information place, like clients can be then become very guarded and maybe not even like willing to be honest and give you the accurate information, and which is risky, right? Like that's not what you want, and you don't even realize sometimes how you come across it. Like if you're not inviting, you know, the the information there, like if you're more leading um or demanding, right? There's an experience for your client, and it's a big one. It may not seem like it, I think to your point, like you probably don't even know, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:40

Because you may not be Yeah, it seems innocuous, like this is part of my job. Things, words that I say, and I need questions answered. Yeah, you know. What you've probably experienced this even with like a doctor, you know, you go to the doctor and the doctor's like, what's up? You know, what's what's not working today? Yeah, and you know, that's fine. He they can she he can say it like that. Yeah, but if they were to also say, you know, tell me what brought you in, or they were to say, you know, would you be willing to share with me just a little bit about you know what's been going on? Yeah, you know, these are these are just slightly different ways. And and two of them are are gentler than the initial question. So your your heart's in the right place if you're thinking, you know, from a curious place. Um, but you know what, how that plays out um in life, you know, looks looks a little bit different. And I will say generally, this applies to all relationships. You know, again, in in past episodes, we've talked about the importance of practicing. This is one of those things, getting good at commanding information, getting good at inviting conversation. This is such a fun thing to do with your partner because they they notice, and uh, you will notice very quickly, you know, how they respond differently because they they don't have any reason to hold back. They don't have any that I mean, you you say, Well, what's for dinner tonight? And they say, Why are you bothering me about dinner? I haven't had time, you know, like working all day.

SPEAKER_00 11:06

That may have triggered me. I might be giving my own response, right? Right. So many triggers, so many triggers.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

Whereas instead, if you had come home and you had said, babe, tell me what you're thinking about for dinner. Or in even better, you know, I would really like to help you with dinner. Would you be willing to share with me what you've been, you know, what you've been hankering for? Again, all the same conversation, but I swear to you, this is this is that these this this is the thing that the students always write to me later and say, I tried it and it worked, Dr. Lurts. And I'm like, yes, yes, it it does. It does. So to your point, should we ask questions? No. Um, not in the way that you think. Right.

SPEAKER_00 11:51

Um, I think what I love about kind of your framework here of like inviting is that what ends up, what you do is that you put that, you give the client almost that permission, right? There's like a willingness there, a permission almost like for the client, right? Like, I'm gonna come and I'm gonna step and I'm gonna meet you where you are. You can meet me, like you can come towards me how in whatever way that feels comfortable, right? Or however far that feels comfortable, right? And and are you willing, right? And you and I both, you know, from motivational interviewing, like you know, positive, there's a willing, the willingness aspect there. I think when clients learn, or when advisors kind of learn to ask questions in a way that invite like or speak to willingness, like it makes a big difference, like the information that you get, the answers that you get from clients. And so that whole like inviting part, you know, to one, I guess maybe I should say like here on the Planning and Beyond podcast, not only do you get financial planning like business advice, but you're also gonna get like things that work in your marriage and maybe even parenting. So you're welcome uh for that. But it does work. And when clients feel like they have they have permission um, that the ball is in their court, they're not as defensive and they're probably gonna be more open and probably a lot more honest with that information uh than if it's you know, what if you say for your 529? Um, you know, for that. So you talked about like how to not ask questions. And so what I've kind of noticed there in the what not to do is there's some kind of structural framing, right, around that. What needs to be like happening kind of for the advisor? What place does the advisor like need to be in when asking questions? I'm thinking more just kind of from an emotional place. Like, you think advisors need to be kind of in a calm kind of state asking this? Like, do you think like emotionally, like their tone, all that stuff like matters? Like, what have you seen? What do you teach about um when it comes to the emotional state of the advisor when asking some of these questions?

SPEAKER_01 14:09

Well, I'm actually really curious because you asked that, like what you're what you're thinking of.

SPEAKER_00 14:15

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

So what what are you picturing?

SPEAKER_00 14:18

Yeah, uh, so I'm picturing like maybe new client meetings, onboarding process, right? Kind of discovery, um, you know, early stages maybe of a relationship, or and or maybe it's a um life transition milestone in a client's life. You've been meeting, you've been meeting with this client for a long time, but maybe they're coming in because now they're empty nesters, or it's a divorce, um, or they're, you know, starting to actively retire from like an advisor state. I'm just wondering like if an advisor is more anxious um or worried, preoccupied, like if their emotional state, how that might impact just kind of their question game uh in in that meeting or in those meetings. I, you know, my opinion is that as best as you can, staying emotionally regulated is generally more helpful. Generally more helpful when it comes to asking questions. I would imagine, and I can speak to what I've seen for the advisors that I work with. I can also speak to the um therapist um that I supervise, um, because I supervise other um pre-licensed therapists, uh, is kind of being mindful of your own state. And sometimes the way we ask questions or come across if we're in a more heightened state of emotion for whatever reason, that can maybe it can be lead to more leading questions. Uh or maybe it can speak meaning and messaging to clients that we're not really trying to. So I don't know if that's helpful. That's kind of what I'm thinking, framework-wise, maybe what you've seen thoughts or what you teach about, um, or do you teach about that uh in some of your trainings?

SPEAKER_01 16:10

I don't know that I that I have taught about that specifically, but now that you've given some more color to it, I mean, I 100%, you know, think that it matters. I think that anybody, whether client meeting or or anything else, if you have found yourself in a really heightened state, maybe, and you know, this isn't necessarily have to be in a negative emotion. It can be like you could just feel so excited, you know, about what's what's happening. Our our emotions matter to everything that we do. Like it is a filter, you know, through which you see the situation in front of you. And so to be, you know, emotionally regulated and just be able to control maybe like system one, system two brain, like not to, you know, system one brain is that fast brain that uh just kind of does things automatically. You know, when you are super stressed out, this brain wants to do all the work. You cannot necessarily switch to system two where you're doing more effort effortful work because your your brain is already doing a lot of work, just trying to like keep you in this chair. And so I think that you know, when when we know, you know, we're about like the client has called and they have said uh I was diagnosed. And um, I I don't I don't know. I don't know. And you automatically feel your heart in your throat. Um I think it is a hundred percent okay to say I'm really glad that you shared that. I have a lot of big feelings that are reacting in me right now. And is it okay if we just if I just ask a few more questions? They may not come out super great, but I I really want to understand more about what's going on. Can I ask you some more questions? And just I think it's okay to say it, you know, like I I think it's all right. And and sometimes when you name it, and I I mean I didn't even name it, I just said like big emotions. That it can let's let's them know, hey, things aren't gonna necessarily run smooth, but I I appreciate that you share this vulnerability with me, and I want to share that that I am reacting to it. I care about you, and and this is now a vulnerable time for me as well. And I don't think that that means you're unstable. You know, I think that that just means you're normal. And when you can say it out loud, in many ways you kind of like calm yourself down. So it's it's worth pointing out that as much as we talk about questions and therapy and questions and financial planning, another big place that questions show up is in crisis training. If you call, hopefully nobody listening has, but if you were to call a suicide hotline, they ask you question after question. Where are you? What's going on? What has just happened? And what what this does when people ask us questions about us, it's the pleasure center of the brain that lights up. And why that's important is that it begins to release those chemicals that tell us to calm down, to tell us that we're important, to tell us that we're interesting. And this feels really good to the body. And when somebody is freaking out or they're really scared, or something horrible has happened, and we need to understand what's happening, and we need to calm them down. We may just think, oh, we we'll just hug them and tell them it's gonna be okay. Actually, it's a lot better for them as for you to ask them a lot of questions. And and the question asking can actually help regulate and and in some instances uh raise self-efficacy. Um, I think that I I think that that is um really important, you know, and and uh in terms of just the the connection that we have and the importance of relationships and the importance of showing up and being curious and being present. Because if if they just found out that they have cancer, or let's talk about the positive too, if they just found out they are pregnant with twins after trying for so many years and they are just beyond excited, but now very worried that their kids are both going to Harvard at the exact same time, you know, there there is a lot, or Columbia, Columbia is where I teach, Harvard, but uh like we want Columbia. Um, that like this the these moments with really high emotions, and we're feeling high emotions, and they're feeling high emotions. It it's okay to name your emotion or talk about the fact that you're feeling a lot of emotions, and then ask some more questions because this this helps regulate. And you know, as well as I know that it does this other fancy thing that we refer to in therapy as self-social constructionism. That we we connect, we our lives, our our universe, our our world is socially constructed. And the way that you like imagine walking into like a dark room, and people are just as you're asking these questions about the scenario that they're in, lights are flipping on. And so now you and them are standing in this like fully lit room. That that is social constructionism, and it is it is so powerful and so important to to the relationship, but also to the to the information, you know, that you may. Need and I don't at all remember why we got onto like this particular tangent.

SPEAKER_00 22:06

I love that you talked about actually the crisis piece because we've been talking about like probably non-crisis, you know, types of interactions, right? Like how to ask questions and a non-crisis, which look it's gonna be, let's be honest, like it's probably gonna be like the bulk of your client work, you know, inner but there are gonna come those times when your advisor calls or when your client calls and it's a it's a crisis and and it might be positive, it might be, you know, like having twins, um, or it might be something that's a lot more heartfelt. And I love kind of the distinction there of like in those points and times of crises, it is actually okay to one, you know, you want to validate, reflect, right, and share. But also then to ask kind of those questions. And, you know, depending upon maybe the type of crisis it is, especially if it's more um negative, I don't want to say negative emotional, but like heartfelt heavy. Uh, you know, there's a co-regulation that also happens through those questions. Like you talked about how it kind of soothes like the client, but like there's also it can be soothing to you too, because if your brain's going a million miles a minute, understandably your client's been diagnosed, right? There's a lot of stuff going on for you too. Like asking kind of those questions, clarifying questions like about what's going on. It can also be a way to kind of bring your system, allow you to take kind of that deep breath as well. So I appreciate you mentioning that because I think that is helpful to know. That's that is not the time and place to maybe ask those inviting questions, right? Uh no, probably probably not.

SPEAKER_01 23:47

Let's use the let's use the command form right um in those moments, you know, be be sturdy, command that information. Um, but but I think it's just important to know that like it in those moments, it's I mean you're you're you're called financial advisors, like it's in your title to give advice. And it's sound like sometimes it feels like many advisors have told me, well, it like when I feel like I need to get to the advice, and and I feel like my client is gonna think it's weird or annoying, or you know, they're gonna want to kill me like Socrates, if I just keep asking them questions. But in reality, this is not what happens. That is not what happens at the brain level at all. You know, they it has the opposite effect that they think, God, this person is interesting or interested in me. They're taking time to really like hear, uh I'm actually saying things that I have never said before. So, and and even in doing that, like this this just conversation has been enlightening because I through your comment through your questions, I had thought about other things I hadn't even thought about. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:58

Or it's allowed me that space to process and share because I can't share this with everybody else. Anytime I share or I've started sharing this, people freak out and they don't know what to say or how to respond to me. They don't ask those questions around what's going on, what happened. You know, they don't. So, you know, in a weird way, like you could be the only one like in their life or one of a very, very small group of people that's actually responding in a way that they need. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 25:27

Yes. I I I think that questions are great. I have I have spent a lot of time uh researching them, learning about them. I've spend probably an inordinate amount of time thinking about them, not not only because of like the structure and again, like what's happening at a brain level and and what's happening, you know, physically between uh two people, but also because in some ways they're easy. Like at, you know, like we were talking in a different episode about like modern modern techniques of modern therapeutic techniques. And some of these techniques can be quite complex. But learning to ask like a few good questions in either an invitation form or a command form, this is something that is a hundred percent, you are capable of doing this tomorrow, and you will only get better at it with time. And the more you practice it, the more natural it becomes. Like the first time you say to somebody, well, share with me a bit more about that. You know, instead of it will feel weird. You will think to yourself, Did they recognize that I just like commanded them? You know, was that weird for them? You'll think about it, but they won't think about it at all. No, they will not notice whatsoever. And so it's it's such a simple thing to do that makes just such a huge, huge difference in the trajectory of the conversation.

SPEAKER_00 27:01

Yeah, agreed, agreed. So I know you've kind of started in on on just kind of some takeaways here, and maybe in addition to that, uh, reading everything that you've ever written on questions would also be a helpful starting place. Um, I don't that would probably that could take a little while, but I also think it's worthwhile. Um, and you know, advisors should just do that. But do you have any other kind of easy starting places for advisors when they're learning kind of to do or change or shift uh their questions?

SPEAKER_01 27:35

I think that one, uh, we talked in a different episode about um like the AI bot thing that people have been inviting into meetings, which I think is great.

SPEAKER_00 27:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

Do this and then afterwards, like remove all their client names, okay, but then pop it into like chat GPT or something and say to say to chat, like, hey, how many open-ended questions did I ask? How many minutes was I talking versus the other person talking? Did I actually invite anybody? You know, or like did I, you know, and spend a little time just learning about how you communicate, you know, that that sort of practice is really important, although can be very hard to want to do. Um there are also uh a great number of books. There's this book that's called The Beautiful Book of Questions, and it's by Warren Berger.

SPEAKER_00 28:30

Well, yeah. He's written another one too.

SPEAKER_01 28:33

It talks a lot about questions, and it's a it's a good one. And so even just like different, and it's not about financial planning, you know, it's just it's really just about questions and how people ask them and different ways you can use them. Um, I really enjoyed that book. Um so I would recommend, I would recommend that one just because it's a really good one. Um, and again, not not necessarily it's just about communication um generally.

SPEAKER_00 28:57

Yeah, I love that. I love the book. Um, I think he's written another one. I cannot remember it. We've torn up um currently my office right now. Uh, and so uh I'm not able to access that. But he has written another one and it's also really great, um, centered around questions. Yeah. Uh yes, he calls himself a questionology, which I'm really jealous. Uh, which is fantastic and brilliant. And I love the tech piece of analyzing conversations, utilizing tech. I think that that's fantastic. I think that's brilliant. Um we talked about two kind of previously starting small. I would suggest maybe picking one aspect of your meeting or just one meeting, whether it's, you know, your prospect, whether it's client review, um, you know, plan delivery, whatever it is, uh, or just the intro um part of your client meeting. Just pick one thing, look at your question game kind of within that area, that meeting, see what can be better, what can be different. Talk to your mastermind group. Um, you know, put it out on LinkedIn. You'll get some good feedback uh there around what questions, how can you make this better? But start small, pick one thing, go with that, see how that flows, and then, you know, continue to just go from there. So, Meg, I appreciate you coming on and joining us and talking about uh all things questions. You are the questions queen. I love everything that you put out um there. I know you've got great stuff coming out with shaping wealth. Can you share just kind of briefly if people didn't catch that before, um, just what you guys are doing at Shaping Wealth?

SPEAKER_01 30:28

The new program is called Navigator, and it is it's gonna be going in August or starting in August. Um, and it it is gonna be a lot about questions, um, a lot about thinking about you know, where a client is at. And um we talked about trans theoretical model of change earlier. It this comes into Navigator and and thinking about, you know, if a person is is dealing with ambivalence and and because okay, this we talked how about okay, intro meetings are important. Financial advisors oftentimes think, well, the client's here, so they clearly want to work with a financial planner. This is not necessarily true, and I would say eight times out of ten, probably not true. They are trying to decide if working with a financial advisor will help solve their problem, which they very much want to do. But does working with you is yet another question that they may really have some ambivalence about? And we know that when people are in pre-contemplation and contemplation, they they are really that they are in that decisional imbalance place. They are really trying to weigh pros and cons. And so this is one of the beautiful ways that questions work. If we know a person is like that, then what one of the things that we really want to ask in that intro meeting is stuff that relates to self-persuasion. Tell me, why do you think that working with a financial planner would be helpful? You know, share with me a bit about, you know, looking at looking at the different ways that we can work together, looking at sort of the different services that I have available, you know, which of these is really striking you and why is that? You know, asking them now what they're gonna do in response to that is they're gonna say, well, you know, my friend Bob has a financial advisor, and Bob seems really happy, and Bob told me that I should, you know, look into it, and so I'm here. And and you know, I I think that because Bob's doing it, like I should be doing it too. Okay, well, now you know, like his friend sent him there, and it, you know, that's been positive, and he's kind of looking for peace of mind, even though he came in and talked about his taxes. So, like asking some of those self-persuasion like questions, we like our own ideas best. And so, like in intro meetings, you know, understanding what's going on in the brain, understanding what's going on in that meeting, and then using questions that we know help people to feel good, that we know help people to calm down, that we know create connection, you know, for this, for this relationship that we're trying to build and elevate. Okay, that's the that is what the navigator process does in every meeting that financial advisors have. So we're gonna learn about the brain, about questions, about scripts and ideas, putting putting this together in like a really uh hopefully what feels like an extremely practical way to take some of these big ideas and and place them within financial planning.

SPEAKER_00 33:25

I love that. I'm so pumped that you guys are putting that out there. It's so needed, so necessary. Makes me want to sign up myself uh and and do it.

SPEAKER_01 33:33

You can.

SPEAKER_00 33:34

I would love it if you guys sound awesome. So we'll make sure that we include that information there. Thank you for sharing that. Uh, and be sure to join us next time for our uh season series, not season series, finale, which is actually an audience question. So Meg and I are gonna be diving into an audience question that was put out um answering that. I'm excited to do that with you. I think that's gonna be really cool. So be sure to check that out. That comes out uh here in a few weeks. Until next time, see you later. Thanks for joining me on this episode of Planning and Beyond. I hope you found today's insights valuable and inspiring for both your practice and your personal growth. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. Your feedback helps us reach more advisors like you who are dedicated to making a difference. For more resources, tips, and to continue the conversation, visit our website at beyondthefp.com. You'll find articles, tools, and information about upcoming episodes designed to support your journey and practice. Stay connected with us on social media and never miss an update. Follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn. And remember, the best way to grow is to keep learning and sharing. Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going beyond.