SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the podcast where financial advising meets the art of meaningful conversations. I'm your host, Ashley Kwame. As a certified financial behavior specialist and a passionate advocate for personal growth, I'm here to help you elevate your practice and deepen your connections with clients. In each episode, we dive into the intersection of psychology, therapy, and financial advising. You'll discover practical strategies, insightful stories, and expert interviews that will empower you to not only excel in your profession, but also thrive in your personal life. Together, we'll explore the human side of financial planning, from understanding client emotions to mastering the nuances of effective communication. We'll also focus on your own growth because the best advisors are those who are continually evolving. Get ready to transform your practice and yourself. This is Planning and Beyond. Hello and welcome to the Planning and Beyond podcast. I am so excited to be here for episode two of this series with Dr. Megan Lurts, one of my favorite people. Hello, in this uh in this BFI financial psychology place. Um last episode, Meg and I talked all about the advisor relationship, understanding the intersection of financial planning and psychology, the importance of it. So if you haven't checked that out, be sure to go back and listen to that. That's episode one of the series. Today, we talked about the client last time, Meg. Today, let's talk about the advisor. This is a conversation I'm pumped about because you know, when I came into this space, what I what I noticed is that advisors, there's not a lot of talk around advisors doing their own work and understanding themselves and just the impact of that on their relationship, their advice, all of that. So uh for today, I thought maybe we would dive into and just have a conversation around all of that, the self of the planner, self of the advisor. We call it mental health self of the therapist. So I'm just kind of stealing from that. But uh yeah, let's talk about, let's talk about the planner today. They are kind of that other side of the equation of the interaction um here. And so maybe just kind of briefly, let's just chat. Like, why is it important? We'll start kind of high level. Why do you think it's important from your perspective that advisors understand themselves, their own biases, money story, all that jazz?

SPEAKER_00 2:47

That's how we show up. Like whether whether you whether you want to or not, you are who you are. There have been experiences in your life that maybe some of them you actively think about, maybe some of them you do not, but you were you've been on a journey, and what you learned and picked up along that journey relates to now. In fact, uh as a partner at shaping wealth, there's like many things that we say all the time. And and one of them that we say all the time is that uh nobody is fluent in finance. And I think that that matters because I think as a financial advisor, we we think we are, you know, like um we we know the mathematics, we know what you know, I like uh RIA stands for, you know, we know or what I yeah, yeah. There we go. My brain's not like it. Um we know like 529 plan, like we know these words, we're aware of what you know that means. So that's that sometimes can be a people's initial first hurdle, like learning a new language, period, is tough. Learning the language of of money and all the acronyms and stuff like that. Uh, I think one of the best movies that ever was ever made about money was called The Big Short. And I don't know if you've seen it recently, but one of the things that I love about it is that like it randomly like stops the movie, and then they're like, blah, blah, blah, this is what this thing is. Because it's like, yes, these are like arcane things. Like, nobody knows what the hell this is. And this happens all the time in finance. So financial advisors know that part. They know that part about, you know, like the words to say, what the things are, and they can define them and many times they can use them. But but there's another side of money, like that emotional side of money, that memory side of money, the value side of money, the the family side of money that um again, whether whether we want it to or not, it shows up in our advice. I I give a very obvious example, but just to to illustrate this, I mean, imagine, imagine that you are a financial planner and you specialize in doctors. And when you were growing up as a kid, you had your parents were both surgeons. And you watch them be surgeons and deal with medical practice things, and you watch them open new practices and do all kinds of things. Um, and now, as a financial professional, you specialize in doctors and you definitely know the life of a doctor because you watched it, you know, as a kid when you were growing up. But whether you recognize or not, you also know the downside of that. Like when your parents, you know, opened up another clinic and they were just gone all the time. Or when they were stressed, you know, about something financial because, you know, because of this life that they had, or they were stressed emotionally because of this life that they had. So now your client, young doctor, married, baby on the way, you know, is sitting in front of you and says, Yeah, things are going good. I'm gonna open another clinic. Little, little Bobby here that's gonna be born is is gonna benefit from this new clinic because we're gonna have all this extra money and all these new clients. And you with without even realizing it, are thinking to yourself, this is the worst idea ever. How, how do I tell them? Or how you and you may even say, like, are you sure you want to do that? Or, you know, you're on track just fine to send little Bobby to college. So you may not actively push against what they're saying, but there may be things in your language, how you share it, the intonation, your body language that that would give it away in the sense that there's something else under the surface for you.

SPEAKER_01 6:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:50

And even or you're not totally supportive of professional.

SPEAKER_01 6:53

Yeah, or you're just not totally supportive of like that decision to move in that direction.

SPEAKER_00 6:58

Right. Right. So it you know, knowing knowing yourself is such a big part of being in a healthy relationship. And we we go there, you know, with our clients. And I think that uh you knowing how you got there really matters to you being able to go there. Um, Rick Kaler, who I think you and I both know, um, Rick always tells me that there's somebody else that says this and that it's not him, but I don't in my brain it attributes it to him. And he always says that you can't take clients further than you've gone yourself.

SPEAKER_01 7:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:38

And I think that that is really important in this moment. And um I will I will juxtapose this with the fact that being a financial planner is really hard. It's lonely. You are required to be a financial expert, a priest, uh a knower of all calendared things, uh, a genius at communication. Uh so you you are required to be so many things to so many people. You also have your own home life. Um and I have had many financial advisors say to me that they don't always think that they can be themselves at work. And so there is a real concern, or I have a real concern over advisor well-being. Like, even if you can be yourself, that's great. Are you taking care of yourself? And if you if you're not even able to be yourself, you know, like how how are we coping? Yeah. And so talking more about you know, doing your own work and and what what having your origin story be obvious to you, or just just knowing how and why you show up the way that you do, having that be more conscious than subconscious. It takes work, but but doing that I think better prepares us for time with our clients, but also better prepares us and insulates us really um for mental health.

SPEAKER_01 9:12

Well, knowing yourself too, right? It allows you. Um, I found this, uh, you know, knowing what makes me tick, uh, what are my own triggers? Um, what are the unhealed parts of just my own life or story or you know, points on that timeline, right? That maybe I bring into sometimes unknowingly, right? It's like, oh crap, I didn't know that I still had that wound there. Oh, all right. Thanks, client, for bringing that up to the forefront. But having that awareness and really like knowing that it allows you, I love what you said, it allows you to really take care of yourself as an advisor a lot better. And you know, some of the ways I guess I'm also kind of thinking about that is if it's a difficult client, like bringing in, if you're able to, like another planner to help with that conversationally, um, or be more selective in the types of clients or you know, your niche, right? Um, with that. Going back to your story, maybe you shouldn't work with doctors if you've got some of your own doctor trauma. Like, I don't know, right? But, you know, knowing kind of what is there in the rear view mirror, it does, I think, provide greater clarity to what's in front of you and how to move through that uh a lot. You know, one of the things that you chat kind of touched on there, and and I don't want to get super jargony because I think you and I are both anti-like jargony here when it comes to talking about stuff. But, you know, when we really understanding from a transference, like counter-transference place, right? Kind of what that is. Um, we talked last time just about the education piece. So, like learning about maybe some of these can really help shape, I think, how um how you show up, but understanding yourself as well. When do you find um I know that I find that most advisors have like no idea, like just about the idea of counter-transparence? It's like, whoa, wait, that's a thing. And for those maybe listening, like we're when we talk about counter-transparence, we're talking about your reaction, like emotional reaction, behavioral reaction to a client response. Let's just say it's a pretty oversimplified maybe definition of it.

SPEAKER_00 11:44

Uh I don't know many advisors that know that phrasing. Correct. I do know many advisors who, if I say, think about the client that reminds you of your grandma. And hopefully your grandma in this version was lovely. Um, and you know, she comes in, she's overspending, but she your grandma was so sweet. This woman is so sweet, and I don't I don't want to tell my grandma that, like, you know, like that, that's gonna be awful. And now I don't want to tell Betty, my client, that because she's just too much like my grandma. If I I can't tell my grandma, I can't tell Betty.

SPEAKER_01 12:24

I don't want to break her heart.

SPEAKER_00 12:26

I don't want to break her heart. You know, this this has nothing to do with your grandma. Well, I mean, it does. And now, and now it's showing up in bed. Right. And so we we do this all the time. Like, your brain isn't broken if you've done this, your brain actually works super good. The human brain loves to categorize, it it helps us go quicker. And so, like Betty being like your grandma and Susan being like your wife, and Fred being like your best friend Tom, like fine. But when you go to give advice and you're sitting in front of Betty, and all you can think about are feelings that matter to your grandma, or how you know, then it gets hard. The the advice isn't crystal, the advice is money. And this happens, this happens all the time, whether we want it to or not. And so acknowledging that it does happen and then knowing what to do about it, you know, I think that that that's that's the trick. If you're doing it, you're normal, you're not broken in any way. Um, we do it all the time. And but it does impact our advice. And so let's just recognize it and then let's talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 13:40

Well, and from a place of ethics, like too, right? There's, you know, we won't go down the ethical route here, but it also brings into question like, are you are you really being ethical then if if you're not recognizing that and you're continuing to act in that way of you know, engaging in counter transfer, you know, with that or with that client that way. You know, I've had I've shared, you know, kind of before that I've had to discontinue services, one client in particular that I had such a strong emotional reaction to, unreally knowing. Um, but because I just wanted to help them, I kept working with them, but I was having then such a hard time working with them, but I want to help them. And I think that I can help them. I think I can do like good work, but oh my gosh, like I'm having all of these own, you know, my own stuff just kind of come up. And, you know, thankfully I have good people in my life that also call me on my stuff, and they're like, you have to stop seeing them. Like this is not ethical, you know, for you. You're taking their money and seeing and not, you know, this doesn't work, Ashley. And so thankfully I've had good people in my life to call me on my stuff, right? To say, stop, like this isn't good for you or the client. And, you know, thankfully I had that. Advisors may not have that. I think that speaks to just the importance of having a good peer group or you know, a mentor, or just you know, somebody else, maybe even a group like shaping wealth, what you guys do to be able to talk about that stuff, right? And get that kind of feedback, or you know, having a financial behavior officer, you know, somebody like myself on your team to be able to assess and kind of navigate that. But all of this is real and it shows up even in financial planning. And I guess when you work with a lot of advisors, I work with you know advisors as well. What is the response from advisors on this when you bring it up? Do you are they like, you know, okay, I want to do my own work? Are they like, eh, I hear you, Meg. That sounds good, but I think I like it over here in Comfortville a lot better. Hey friends, we'll be right back with the episode. But before we do, I wanted to take a quick second to let you know about what we do at Beyond the Plan and how we support financial advisors who are committed to growth. At Beyond the Plan, we specialize in integrating financial and client psychology to enhance your advisory practice. From client meeting facilitation, advisor training and coaching, even client onboarding strategies. We are your implementation partner and dedicated in-house expert. Visit our website at beyondthefp.com to learn more about our services and how we can collaborate to elevate your practice. Together, let's go beyond the plan to deliver meaningful client experiences that foster long-lasting relationships. Now, back to the episode.

SPEAKER_00 16:38

One of my favorite things to do, and it's mostly my favorite thing to do, I doubt any advisor likes it when I do it to them. If I'm in a room, let's say, of like a couple hundred advisors and given like a talk or something, I try to I try to work it in. Raise your hand if you have a financial advisor. And it's it's usually like less than 10. Yeah. And I think that this is so interesting because when you ask an advisor how important they think their work is, it's like so important. And their their advisors just like their clients just love them. And, you know, they they are definitely empathetic people. And um, you know, financial planning is super important. But they don't, they don't give themselves that gift. And I recognize there could be some other stuff there, like pride and stuff. But like, what do you think your clients feel when they come strolling into your office and they're like, well, here's all the things that I've kind of screwed up in the past six months, and I've decided that I probably should not be left to my own devices. So, you know, like let's talk like it isn't always a great thing for them either. And so you can think of this as like reconnaissance, you know, like how how do other advisors do this, you know. Uh, a good friend of mine, he he is a financial advisor, was a financial advisor for many years, and he has six financial advisors, he also has a lot of money, but like he has like six financial advisors. And he he does this because he's very interested in like how the different firms what they think of and what they do. And so I again like I think that it's interesting to see how other people run their businesses, interesting to see how other people build relationships. Um, but I also think that it really matters to finance to to be supported in that way. Yeah. And I mean, you even mentioned it earlier about you know, being in a meeting and a client, you know, it's just like making you uncomfortable. And you so you call in another advisor. If you have like an associate advisor or another advisor, um, and maybe they're helping to, you know, run some, run a little bit of that meeting, but also after, you know, the opportunity to debrief and be like, you know, the client said this, and I I heard it like this. And they may say, actually, Meg, like I I didn't hear it like that. I recognize that that this was triggering for you for any number of reasons, but this is actually how I heard it. And that isn't always easy, but can be enlightening. Um, and I think it it goes back if you listen to episode one, like it it's just it's it comes down to the value of relationships and advisors, whether it's yeah, working with shaping wealth or being a part of a mind, um, like a mind mastermind group, or you know, being in class with other people. If you're you know, at K-State, we have all the advanced um financial planning curriculums. And the the value, what I see at shaping wealth, what I see when I do individual consulting, what I see even at the at the unis, that peer-to-peer interaction, getting to talk to another advisor about in my class, we're gonna talk about your feelings, but like getting getting to do that. Um, everybody always says, like, when I first took this class, I thought this is gonna be a bunch of woo-woo yuck, and then you know, and then they get to the end and they're like, so it was, but I'm glad I did it, you know, and and that's you know, the first time you go to therapy, it's not it's not fun.

SPEAKER_01 20:27

No, none of it's enjoyable. And I'm a therapist and I don't enjoy being on the other side of the platform coach.

SPEAKER_00 20:33

Yeah, I can't I keep going back to the same thing, you know, that that relationships matter. Relationships are are powerful. It's how it's part of how we navigate the world.

SPEAKER_01 20:42

It's also part of how change happens. One of my favorite things to do after sitting in on client meetings like with the advisor is to do that debrief that you said, like, what was that like for you? What were your takeaways? What did you hear? Here's what I heard. Because, you know, the other part too is like, you know, I'll speak for you know, kind of myself is that in a client meeting, like I may also be having some of my own stuff, right? Kind of happen too. Like, even though I'm the quote unquote, like, you know, financial behavior officer, subject matter expert, whatever, like all that fancy, like I have my own stuff that may come up, and that debrief kind of time can really be helpful, um, you know, for the both of us, but also making sure, like you said, what did you hear? No, I didn't quite hear the tone, like, oh, that tone really, because it seemed a little bit more kind of even killed there. Like, tell me more about that. What's what what was that? You know, I think for any of you listening, if some of the stuff Meg and I are talking about with regards to understanding yourself, if that feels, you know, maybe scary. Oh, I don't know if advisors would like hearing that if that feels scary, uncomfortable, maybe vulnerable. Right is the better, better word. Maybe a good place to start might be debriefing with, I don't know, another advisor if you have them sit in or client service um team member if they sit in, however it is. Probably not your AI companion. Um, I know that's becoming really, really popular.

SPEAKER_00 22:21

As it should. It's super cool. You can certainly learn about it.

SPEAKER_01 22:24

It's probably not going to be a good debrief partner for you in this, in this sense. So um, all right, Meg. So we've talked a lot about advisor kind of self-work and tying that back into the relationship, which like you and I are both in like agreement here from a starting place. You know, I kind of said maybe giving, maybe jumping into like a peer group, like self-work is overwhelming. Um, and it's also not, I think you would agree with this, it's not a one-time check the box, like I went to therapy for six months, I'm done, right? Um, self-work also doesn't mean you have to go to therapy, uh, you know, either. So I want to make make that clear. But what are some good like low-hanging fruit, maybe kind of starting places that you think for advisors would be good as far as um walking into kind of the waters of doing self-work?

SPEAKER_00 23:22

I I think that there are so many fun ways to actually do this. Um, because it it doesn't have to be like hot and heavy immediately. You know, we we said in podcast one, like start start small. And and this I think is the same. And so, like tonight, sit down with your partner. If you don't have a partner, call your mom. If you don't have a mom, call your brother. If you don't have a brother, call your friend. And say, you know, I was listening to this podcast and these two ladies, they were telling me that this was a good idea. So I'm I'm just gonna try it. Is it okay if we just try it? And they're always gonna say, yeah, because they're your friend, their partner, your brother, you know, it's cool. Carbon. So now you say, What did you learn like financially from your mom? What did you learn financially from your dad? What was your first job? And do you remember why you got that job? Like, was there a reason? And then, and you you answer too. Like, you answer, they answer.

SPEAKER_01 24:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:34

It's very fun if you have a sibling, because sometimes siblings actually remember the exact same event, but they were but they remember it differently. This can also happen with like friends when you've just been like, I don't know, if you were like me in college and had a bit of a wonder less. And so like every other month my credit card was maxed out. And uh, you know, the way that my friends remembered certain expenditures, which is the way I remembered certain expenditures, you know, were always a little bit different. And so just the act of talking about money and your ex like when was the first time you used a credit card? What was it for? You know, what was what's a recent thing that you bought that made you happy? What was the recent thing that you bought that you're like that? Nope. You know? Um talk talk about money. Talk about it in in a way that's not about you know, saving for retirement or funding some particular account, like talk about your experiences with money. What was your first money fight? What was it about? What was the first time you had like a real financial win? Like you felt like, hell yeah, I'm adulting, I have dollars. You know, like I I think that these are all such interesting questions that that are not, you know, tell me about your earliest childhood memory related to money, you know, which fine, you can answer that, but sometimes these are are heavy. And this is this does not mean you don't have heavy ones later on, but there's real value in doing this for you. You will be amazed, whoever it is that you decide to have this lovely conversation with, that how you feel close to them afterwards and how they feel close to you. That talking about money in the in this other way, becoming fluent, you know, in that in that value side of it, in that family side of it. Um, you know, if you if you died tomorrow and somebody was like looking over your accounts, what would they see? You know, how would you feel about that? Um I think that there are just so many interesting questions. Um and I think that's dope. And it's okay to just start with like simple.

SPEAKER_01 27:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that. And you know, too, just to add to that, you know, there's a closeness there, but there's an intimate, like there's an intimacy, right? It's kind of like uh killing two birds with one stone, right? You're learning about yourself, you're learning about them, you're creating intimacy. Like, it's can't be a bad thing. Uh, I'm not seeing where that's a bad thing at all. But then again, this is a therapist um also saying that that sounds lovely and wonderful. So um I love that. I love that suggestion, starting with those. The the other thing I was thinking about, you know, too, as you were talking about like experience. Um, I think for advisors, a another great starting point could be after your client meeting, um, hopefully you've got at least 10 to 15 minutes, uh, sit down and just like write down or type out like what did I feel during that meeting? Let me name the emotions. It's probably more than one, right? What emotions came up for me? Did I feel nervous at certain points? Did I feel annoyed? Did I feel frustrated? Did I feel worried? If you have a difficult time naming emotions, get yourself an emotion wheel. Uh, they are super cool. There's a lot of different kinds of versions. It doesn't matter what version you get, just get one. But spend a few minutes and just think back through what was that experience like for me, right? And I think we focus so much on like the client, but like what was it like for you? What emotions came up for you? What thoughts did you have? Were you preoccupied with your own thoughts? Uh, were you worried about something, you know, from there and spend a few minutes just kind of doing that. And you know, I think that if you start to do that and make that a habit or a practice after client meetings, there will be some things that start to reveal themselves, maybe some patterns uh overall or with particular clients. So um that can also be just a great starting point uh if you're wanting to do something kind of practically um and that's you know also there kind of after uh or focus really kind of around the client, client meaning business part. Yeah, I love that idea. Awesome. Awesome. Well, Meg, another great conversation. I appreciate you joining me talking about all of this. Uh we have two more in the series uh coming up. So be sure to watch out for those as they as they drop. Um, but if you haven't gone back, listen to episode one. Um, that'll prep you for kind of obviously uh this and future conversations. Meg, it's been a pleasure. I will see you in a few weeks. Thanks for joining me on this episode of Planning and Beyond. I hope you found today's insights valuable and inspiring for both your practice and your personal growth. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. Your feedback helps us reach more advisors like you who are dedicated to making a difference. For more resources, tips, and to continue the conversation, visit our website at beyondthefp.com. You'll find articles, tools, and information about upcoming episodes designed to support your journey and practice. Stay connected with us on social media and never miss an update. Follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn. And remember, the best way to grow is to keep learning and sharing. Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going beyond.