SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the podcast where financial advising meets the art of meaningful conversations. I'm your host, Ashley Kwame. As a certified financial behavior specialist and a passionate advocate for personal growth, I'm here to help you elevate your practice and deepen your connections with clients. In each episode, we dive into the intersection of psychology, therapy, and financial advising. You'll discover practical strategies, insightful stories, and expert interviews that will empower you to not only excel in your profession, but also thrive in your personal life. Together, we'll explore the human side of financial planning, from understanding client emotions to mastering the nuances of effective communication. We'll also focus on your own growth because the best advisors are those who are continually evolving. Get ready to transform your practice and yourself. This is Planning and Beyond. Hi, and welcome to the Planning and Beyond podcast. I am your host, Ashley Kwame. Joining me today is my friend, colleague, I think friend first. Yeah, friend, colleague, mentor, all the things, the only Megan in the world, right? Yeah, the only Megan you should know. Uh Dr. Megan Larts is here joining me today. Um, and for this series, so for the next four conversations, um, she and I uh will be diving into really the kind of overarching premise is understanding uh the intersection of psychology and financial planning. Uh so for today's episode, we're gonna jump into the client side uh of things. So understanding the intersection here um from the client end. Um, I've got some questions for us, Meg. Uh so I I want to start with from the CFP board's uh standards um and how they just define it. Uh when I was researching kind of for a time today, I was like, what a better place than to just start with the CFP board, like standards and just look, and you and I can kind of jump off from there. So I'm gonna read straight from their website. So this is a direct quote, but when they talk about defining the psychology of financial planning, and we'll talk about how it relates to the intersection here, is they define it as responding to attitudes, behaviors, and situations that impact decision making, the client planner relationship, and the client's financial well-being. The other part that they go into, kind of in addition to that, and this is kind of the section that I I loved um in terms of their languaging, is the psychology of financial planning is more than client psychology or behavioral finance and includes the interaction of planner characteristics with client characteristics. I loved that sentence so much. I don't know who created it. You probably know. I want to, I want for us to talk about just from the client perspective. Really, what is the benefit here for clients receiving financial kind of psychology or their advisor really having a knowledge or understanding of it? Like, what do you see? You've been in this a lot longer than I have. What is the advantage or the value for clients having an advisor who is knowledgeable, trained, or has, you know, aspects of this in the planning process?

SPEAKER_01 3:41

I'm gonna give like a general answer to that, and then then we can give a more maybe a more specific answer to that. And my general one is that, you know, relationships matter. Relationships with our partner matters, relationships with our therapist matters, relationships with our friends matter, relationships with our kids matter. You know, that that book, The Good Life. I don't know if you've read that yet. It's it's very good. Um, it's based on the Harvard longitudinal study, and no spoiler alerts, but if I summed it up in one sentence and that doesn't mean you shouldn't read it, you should read it. Um it's it's it's just that. It's like that relationships, the value, positive relationships in our life make a difference in our life. And you know, Sutu Financial Planning, you know, this this is a professional financial relationship. We don't, the average person doesn't have a lot of relationships that that overtly revolve around money. And because of that, we don't learn how to talk about money, we don't learn how to be with other people about money, we're not always great at thinking about money as it relates to our decisions. And so this the value of the relationship to provide scaffolding, to provide language, to provide safety, to provide connection. Um I like to me, there's there's nothing more. I'm sure you've heard me say that, you know, um, or certainly my students, if they're listening, have heard me say that the that the financial planning relationship, it's the relationship that the advice passes through. If you have a great relationship, your advice will slide through and you'll be heard and things will things will happen. If you have a relation SH IT, then you then then the then then it's gonna get stuck. It's gonna get stuck. And so thinking about the value of that uh relationship. And I'll use a story. I tell this story a lot because I think it's like a pretty funny story. So I was pregnant and it was during COVID, and I was living abroad, I was living in Spain, and my husband, we have we have military husbands. My husband was out to see, he was just like not even physically there. So I'm I'm there with my at the time, like one and a half year old. I'm pregnant, and it's COVID, we're not going anywhere, and we have like a lot of cash, and I'm in financial planning, and so I'm aware that bank accounts have negative returns right now, like things were just a mess. And so I said to my husband over email because I couldn't call him, hey, uh, we have all this cash. It's making me uncomfortable. I'm gonna do one of two things. I'm gonna get there, I'm gonna invest it and call a financial planner, just kind of dollar cost average here, or we're going to I'm gonna um buy a house. You know, which what do you want? My husband's from Texas, he's like into hard assets for whatever reason. So he's like, let's buy a house. So call my cousin, who's my realtor, bought a house. Okay, life goes on. I have Charlotte, and maybe like, I don't know, a month and a half later, my financial advisor calls and he's like, What's up? How are you? Blah, blah, blah. New baby, 529 pans, let's do it. And we were talking, and we get to the end of the conversation. He's like, So, you know, sounds like you're doing great. Is there anything else, you know, that's on your mind? And I said, Yes, actually, funny that you said that. I need to update my net worth statement. I bought a house. And he goes, What? And I said, Yeah, man, I bought I bought a house. And he goes, Megan, you of all people, Megan, we, we, you and I are in a professional financial relationship. Are these the things that we talk about when you buy houses? We're supposed to talk about that. And, you know, at the at the time, don't, I mean, baby on baby brain, you know, I don't know all the reasons why I did not call my financial advisor, but but I didn't. And like in that moment, it was such a such a wake-up call because my financial advisor is is amazing. He does a great job. I have so much more just like peace of mind because of my relationship with him. I think my husband has a lot more peace of mind because of our relationship with him. And and even I didn't intentionally do that, but notice how I just said my relationship with him. That's that's what brings me peace of mind, knowing that there is someone to call. And oftentimes we think, okay, we have to call when things are bad. Maybe that was why I didn't call him because I wasn't, you know, I was like buying a house, whatever, I'm having a baby. Um, but I think that that relationship and being being reminded that this is how we talk in that relationship and hear the things that we talk about. You know, I with a PhD in personal financial planning, I miss that sometimes. You know, like having a financial relationship is a really new thing. And and learning how to have that relationship and through learning how to have it, getting the getting greater and greater benefits out of it. You know, it's just it's the same. Like when we talk to our partners, you know, learning how to talk to your partner, learning how to fight with your partner, learning how to make decisions with your partner, you know, when you have been single for a long time and then get married, this can be like a an adjustment. And so I don't I I think that that the that the value of that adjustment and then the value that comes from the relationship alone, because again, humans, humans relationship, we do it. And to resist that, you know, to not have that in such an important place in your life.

SPEAKER_00 9:27

Yeah, I think one, I love that story, and just that you said I'm human, right? And like for me, for me too. I love that. Uh, because it's also true, right? Uh, and I won't get into just my own personal stuff on all the things that I talk about and teach about and you know, do stuff. And then in my own personal life, I'm like, oh, tagging it. But what you said earlier, though, I think made a whole lot of sense in terms of when there's a relationship or through the relationship, the advice becomes more sticky. Like whatever it is that you're saying, like, you know, when there's a solid relationship there, the advice that you're giving, it's gonna be stickier. It's going to, you know, I don't know if you want to say create motivation or like engagement there, but it's gonna, you know, clients are gonna be more likely to hear you and maybe even follow through. It reminds me, and I'm sure you're familiar, like in the mental health side, we talk about how it's really not as important what model you're doing, what model of therapy you're doing, what matters most is the rapport. And so when there is a strong rapport there, you know, what change happens. Um, change happens. So, you know, you can be using a lot of different models, and the models don't really matter as much as the relationship part. The other week, and um super wonderful, um, recently gotten to know him. But he asked me this question, and I think I gave a really not so great answer when we were talking, and then later it stuck with me and I was thinking more about it. But he asked me, he was like, How does understanding your clients, you know, these personality, the attitudes, like beliefs, how does that change the advice that I give? And I don't remember what I said on the call with him. I don't think it was that great of an answer because I was on put kind of on the spot, to be honest with you, but it stuck with me and I started thinking like more about it. And, you know, I'm curious to kind of hear what you what you think about that. But, you know, I know in my own just kind of thinking further, I don't know if it actually changes the advice that maybe you give, but I do think that it probably changes the way that you show up and engage with your client. And going back to just the importance kind of of that relationship, I think that's actually the piece that what matters. I'm curious what your thoughts are on that.

SPEAKER_01 12:06

Totally agree. You know, in in the sense that um, you know, most of the advice that financial advisors give, uh, you know, luckily, thankfully, um, you know, is based on it's based on reason, logic, mathematics, probabilities. You know, the the advice itself is has structure, you know, it has mass. And I think that we can, you know, shape it and you know, we could add to it, things like that. But the advice itself is usually pretty solid. You know, if you're trying to get somebody to retirement, you gotta save, man. You know, like it's not that part, it's not rocket science. But when we when we know when we know a person, we can help them find, you know, that space in their budget. I was literally just working on a PowerPoint related to the trans theoretical model of change, which if you've never heard of that, this makes me sad. The trans theoretical model of change is just it's like the best model ever. And it is a model of behavior change. It's just a mat a model of how people change that focuses kind of on, I would say, three things. One thing it is is time-bound, which that can be kind of interesting for people. Two, it has within it a lot of self-efficacy. So like help helping somebody to help themselves. And then it faces that decisional imbalance, that ambivalence, you know, that that we all have. So I'm working on this presentation and trying to think through, you know, how how to talk about trans theoretical model with advisors and how it matters to their work. Because I see advisors, you know, as change agents. And I was looking at some of the research from the Petraskas. And of course, the Petraskas have been re-that's who, you know, them and a few other people have worked on this model for a really long time, like since the 80s. And one of the things that they found, you know, we oftentimes say that, well, the reason why people can't change is just because like, well, they're just not motivated. Right. Or they, you know, just don't have the, they don't have like the Hutzpah to like, you know, do this, or they are um not, you know, we have all these reasons, but apparently the number one reason that people don't change is because they don't know how. Yeah. Isn't that weird? Like to me, that that's like a profound thing. So in in terms of like getting to know your client and why that matters so much, that to your point, Ashley, it would not, it would not necessarily change the advice, but it would absolutely change how you would approach that person, how how you would work with their emotions, because emotions matter, and how how you would look at their budget or how you would look at their family, or what, what, you know, what are they trying to do in the next five years, let alone in the next 50. You know, like when you know these sort of intimate things about them, you you approach differently. And and and and I don't think that that should be like a stressful thing or something that we worry about. I think that we do this all the time and we just don't think about it. Like, I'm one way with this friend, I'm another way with another friend, I'm this way with my partner, I'm this way with my kids. And this does not mean that I'm not me. It means that I know this person and I can adapt my language, I can adapt my timing, I can adapt my patience, I can adapt my expectation to better fit their needs and where they're at.

SPEAKER_00 15:48

You know, one of the things that I like about the trans theoretical model too, especially for advisors, and this might sound really kind of geeky, but my hope is that it starts to become taught. And what I love about it for advisors is that it also provides kind of a map for when certain clients are in certain stages. And I know we won't, we don't have time to geek out on like the whole model here, but I love that it also helps them. It provides that map. And so if they're in a pre-contemplative state here, like what questions do you need to be asking in a pre-contemplative state? Because they sure as heck are different than you know, when they're in an action state or even a contemplative state. So yeah, it provides just kind of that map. And I think, you know, going back to you know, kind of the relationship and understanding their you know, attitudes, beliefs, like all of that really just makes the advice a lot stickier and solidifies just the relationship, hopefully from a longevity place, uh, you know, as well, too. So yeah, we could talk trained theoretical model. That maybe that's a different conversation that you and I uh have and jump on.

SPEAKER_01 16:59

We should though, because it's the jam. If you're listening and you're like, I have no idea what these women are talking about, Google it. And to Ashley's point, it's not just about the stages, it's not just about pre-contemplation, contemplation, preparation, action, maintenance. It's not just about that. It's actually about what's known as the 10 processes, processes, processes of transheoretical model of change. And there are five experiential ones and five behavioral ones. And we're we're alluding to the fact that if you're earlier in the stage process, if you're in pre-contemplation, contemplation, preparation, you're gonna need a lot more feelings work. And then, and then later in the later stages, then we're gonna be focusing more on the behavioral work. And so if you if you had a client, you know, sitting in front of you and you can tell that they are deeply ambivalent about what they're about to do. And maybe, maybe it's because something has happened. Like they are, they their their partner called and said, I want a divorce. Okay, that that is earth-shattering. And even though you may be thinking, well, okay, we need to decide who's gonna keep the house, they you're right, but they can't even imagine themselves not partnered. And so, like figuring out like what their new identity is gonna be and having patience for that, not recognizing that you're not doing anything wrong, that they're not ready to move forward. They're just they're just earlier in that process. And and knowing that those 10 processes tell you, how do I meet this person, you know, where they're at, and actually help them to kind of process these stages and and move forward. Because you do need to go through them all. You don't get to skip them. Um, you can try, but lots of times you'll lapse back. And so it's just it's it's understanding that as kooky as humans are, as different as humans are, you know, I really rest in the fact that there, that there are some overarching uh design to us, if if you will, and transheurotic model of change and and many of the modern therapeutic technique, uh you know, and you can be therapeutic without doing therapy, modern therapeutic technique, um also also rests in this that it that people are geared uh to change, people are geared to growth. And and we're not here to provide that change or that growth, but we we can be a guide, we can be a support, you know, along along this way, and and knowing how to support somebody at the right time and in the right way.

SPEAKER_00 19:39

This is this is hugely beneficial for for you and absolutely well and ultimately isn't financial planning true financial planning helping people, your clients to change. Right? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what you believe, right? Then, you know, it's more than just managing assets, right? And like it's more than that, right? And so learning about whether it's trans theoretical model, whether it's in depth around financial psychology or positive psychology, whatever, right? It might be motivational interviewing, whatever techniques to help you be that, I love what you said, that change agent. You know, it requires extra effort. So the numbers and the advice that you give are great, but that's also not that's not that is not what will keep a client one in the relationship or motivate them towards making any kind of change. Um, a lot of times. And I'm sure you've seen this advisors, you know, maybe believe, understandably so. If I give great advice, the client will just keep keep coming, right? Or it will make sense to them automatically and they'll just change. They'll just do things different. And at least what we've talked about here today is I hope at least um listeners kind of leave with like, oh, maybe that's not just maybe it does require a little bit more or a different way, a different way of thinking.

SPEAKER_01 21:01

I will I would say a different way, and in a way, honestly, that I I believe everybody is geared to do. You know, like you can learn, you can learn these things. And some people do tend to be maybe a little bit better at them, for example, like at the start. But emotional intelligence, things like motivational interviewing, uh, these are all things that you can learn and practice. I did it, you know, like I did it, and I'm living proof of that. Yeah, you too. And so it's and and I I I would comment on something that you said that that it does, it does take more work in the sense that I would say it takes more education. But I can tell you this it is effective. And so it's like if you do it, if you can do it and get that motivation up, if you can do it and like really connect deeply with your client, if you can, if you can do it and you know help help them to see what they are. What they are experiencing and feeling and thinking, your work becomes so much more effective, which ultimately becomes so much more efficient. It's not, it's not necessarily about being efficient in the beginning, but effectiveness leads to efficiencies. And I think that that is a great business aspect of it.

SPEAKER_00 22:22

That's a great slogan for you guys. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:25

Yeah. Yeah. If you're listening and you're like, I don't know. These two, like it's totally, it's totally learnable. And it's fun to learn. And it's another thing. This is a funny thing. You know, Brendan, we both are friends with Brendan Frazier. If you don't listen to his podcast, you should. It's also great. And uh Brendan, I don't remember if we were talking about this on the podcast and we were just like talking about something with each other the other day, like because we are buddies and also hang out. And um, I he was telling me that he was practicing his um, I don't know if he was practicing motivational interviewing, whatever. He was practicing something, being a good listener, who knows? And so he and he's like at the store, like buying shirts. And so like he gets to the end of the shirt buying process, and the salesperson says, Hey man, you know, I I really enjoyed like just hanging out, you know, and like buying shirts. Like, I'm about to go on break. Do you want to have lunch? Like you can practice being a good communicator anytime, anywhere. And and it's funny when it happens with stuff like that at like sales clerk stuff. It's also very funny, or for many of my students, it becomes an at like the most powerful realization because I always get emails. It's always about like two semesters, like two semesters go by, and then like some student will be like, Dr. Lurts, I tried a scaling question with my wife, and it worked. And it's like, why did you wait six months? You know, like, come on, man. I taught you this so long ago. And but now, but now they know, and they're like, I'm gonna use it in a in a meeting, and they're like, you do that, you know. So don't wait, you know. People people want to people want a human with you. People want to, and and this is this is part of it.

SPEAKER_00 24:10

It is part of it. All right, so as we're wrapping up here on this conversation, I want to leave, and we've talked about a few takeaways here, so it's a great segue, actually. But in addition to learning, in addition to maybe just starting, just start practicing, right? What other what other takeaways do you have for advisors, just practical, just yeah, from based off of what we've talked about today?

SPEAKER_01 24:37

When you feel like you're having like a broken record meeting, because we have these with clients all the time. They keep they keep bringing up the same thing, even though you've given them the same legit advice multiple times. Slow down and just say, you know, I'm I'm really curious. You know, we've we've talked about this a few times, and I enjoy talking about it. Like scenario planning, that's my job. I like it. I feel like, and tell me if I'm wrong, that this isn't this this isn't helping. So where where are you at? You know, what what else is coming up? When we talk about this, how are you feeling? What are you thinking? Who does it affect? Yes. You know, and just just dig a little deeper, you know, in that sandpit that they are trapped in, because it's just it's just gonna keep coming up. So curiosity, like just write it somewhere so that you see it, like when you walk into client meetings, be curious. This this is like your most powerful tool, just that innate curiosity. It feels so good when you are sitting in that other chair and and it seems like a person is really interested in you. Um, that that is is huge. It has powerful effects for the for the client, and it has powerful effects for you too, because you you get to really what the heart of the issue is, and you leave them feeling quite good about it.

SPEAKER_00 26:03

And they want to have more of those conversations too. So I love that. Yeah, curiosity is definitely top of my list for encouraging. Yeah, didn't kill the cat, definitely helped you keep it. That's true, right? That is very, very, very, very true. I think the only thing that I would um add in addition to that and would be to start small. You know, this whole kind of arena of you know, financial psychology, you know, learning to ask, better questions, all of that, it's big. Uh, and in terms of what you can do, where you can go, how you can start. And so my encouragement usually to advisors is start small, pick one thing, focus maybe just on that, whether it's how to do your prospect meeting better, whether it's, you know, how to just do client reviews, or like you just you know talked about that one kind of question if things are feeling kind of redundant, like digging in a little bit deeper. But just pick like one or two things and start to work and weave those in. It'll make it a lot easier and a lot less overwhelming uh for you and and then for the client ultimately. Agreed.

SPEAKER_01 27:15

Yeah, I like I like starting small.

SPEAKER_00 27:17

Awesome. Awesome. Well, thanks, Meg, for coming on. I know that we've got a couple of more conversations uh to be had, which I'm excited about, but I appreciate the time coming on today and talking about it. Why don't you share maybe just briefly a little bit where people can find you? You do 5.2 million things uh in the finance space, but uh where can people find you? Where are you most active?

SPEAKER_01 27:41

So I am a partner at Shaping Wealth, which is a leading uh, well, it's a leading learning and development platform for emotional intelligence. Um, we work with financial advisors and help help them to do all the things that you're talking about. Um, in August, actually, I'm launching a new series called like the Navigator Series, which to your point about like starting small, it's very specific in terms of like, here's a question that matters to your intro and prospecting. And we kind of go through intro, discovery, you know, the jam. So there's that. I still write for the Kitses platform. I uh work there for a great many years uh with the Kitses team, which is wonderful. And um I'm a professor at a number a number of unis. Um so if you're really in the need for a class, you can come find me at Columbia, K State, American College, I moonlight there every once in a while, and uh Maryland. So everywhere everywhere I try I try to be as available as possible because it is true that like my favorite thing is talking to advisors.

SPEAKER_00 28:48

Well, you're super great at it, and I appreciate you coming on and chatting with me. So uh thanks for coming on, and we'll see everyone next time. Thanks for joining me on this episode of Planning and Beyond. I hope you found today's insights valuable and inspiring for both your practice and your personal growth. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. Your feedback helps us reach more advisors like you who are dedicated to making a difference. For more resources, tips, and to continue the conversation, visit our website at beyondthefp.com. You'll find articles, tools, and information about upcoming episodes designed to support your journey and practice. Stay connected with us on social media and never miss an update. Follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn. And remember, the best way to grow is to keep learning and sharing. Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going beyond.